Faith over fear

[nobspeople]

I saw a 'bumper sticker' yesterday with the above noted claim. It made me wonder why someone would have to have faith in (assumingly) god to begin with?

It seems to me, the only reason is FEAR: fear of the almighty hand of god smiting them down to hell for eternity (according to how some teach).
So maybe it should have read: faith FROM fear?

For discussion:
How is faith in god NOT a product of fear?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #19]

But if you're no longer seeking and knocking, then you stopped following the: 'keep seeking and keep knocking'.

You shouldn't assume anything.

Not telling you that at all.

You're backtracking.
You said: It is a promise and it is from Christ, so I know it to be true.
I said: No it's not (a promise). I can tell you from experience.
You said: No, you can't.
You're in essence telling my what you 'know' trumps my own experience, so my experience doesn't matter.
So by saying "Not telling you that at all." that's an out right lie.

And how is a person supposed to show that other than with personal testimony?

By providing proof that can be indecently verified. Here, your personal testimony means little if not supported by verifiable proof.

You laugh at the thought of me telling you that your experiences mean nothing... "hysterical" you say.... and yet that is the very thing you keep doing with me:

Don't play the victim
I never said your experience means nothing, as you did to me. I said, without proof, your testimony means little to nothing here. To you, I'm sure it matters a lot. To me, here? Nope: Opinion noted, now prove it or move on.
Factually, I also said you're wrong if you claim god will provide to those seeking (which seems to be what you were saying, but TBH, there's a lot of what you're saying so who knows what was lost in it all!). That's not always the case. No need to argue about it. You're wrong if that's your claim and myself and others are testament of that fact. Like it or not.

Are you adamant on that point because that is the only reason you once believed?

No, but that's not relevant here.

There is no such thing as the 'hell' that "Christendom" preaches.

Many of your brothers and sisters in christ would disagree with you. But again, that's not relevant here in this thread.

OMG and on and on and on. It's been my experience that those who can't succinctly show a point have no point to show.

All this said, you still haven't shown how faith doesn't come from fear. Just angry justification of your opinion with personal insults of "'your experience doesn't matter' to what I believe the bible says!".
I have shown faith comes from fear. More than once no matter if it's given/accepted or developed individually.

I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but you're not capable of doing so it seems. Thus, there's no other reason to argue. We will, again, have to agree to disagree, with me being correct that faith comes from fear.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #19]

But if you're no longer seeking and knocking, then you stopped following the: 'keep seeking and keep knocking'.

You shouldn't assume anything.

I didn't. I asked you a question in the previous post which you did not answer. Here, I said IF.

Not telling you that at all.

You're backtracking.
You said: It is a promise and it is from Christ, so I know it to be true.
I said: No it's not (a promise). I can tell you from experience.
You said: No, you can't.
You're in essence telling my what you 'know' trumps my own experience, so my experience doesn't matter.
So by saying "Not telling you that at all." that's an out right lie.

No, I am saying that it is a logical impossibility for you to be seeking and knocking, and yet no longer seeking and knocking. And if you are still seeking and knocking, then the door could still be opened.

So you can't say the promise is not true based on personal experience, for the simple fact that you are still alive and that door could still be opened. Though going around and saying "God" is not worth your time does bring 'sincerity' into question.

And how is a person supposed to show that other than with personal testimony?

By providing proof that can be indecently verified. Here, your personal testimony means little if not supported by verifiable proof.

How does a person prove how they feel? How does a person prove that they do not believe in 'hell' and therefore that cannot be the reason that they serve?

Tell me how such things can be proven and verified. Then tell me how you have proven and verified that faith is from fear. Or that anything you have said about yourself and your experiences are true.

You laugh at the thought of me telling you that your experiences mean nothing... "hysterical" you say.... and yet that is the very thing you keep doing with me:

Don't play the victim

You're going to need a little more 'gas' for the 'light' if you are trying to get to me.

I never said your experience means nothing, as you did to me.

I said to you the very same thing that you said to me.

I said, without proof, your testimony means little to nothing here.

As does yours then, right?

Factually, I also said you're wrong if you claim god will provide to those seeking. That's not always the case. No need to argue about it. You're wrong and myself and others are testament of that fact. Like it or not.

I said the promise is true that if you knock and seek, and keep knocking and seeking, the door will be opened.

Are you adamant on that point because that is the only reason you once believed?

No, but that's not relevant here.

Just curious.

There is no such thing as the 'hell' that "Christendom" preaches.

Many of your brothers and sisters in christ would disagree with you.

They would not; though some (whom I might not yet know) might not yet have learned the truth of this matter. People tend to leave religion with a lot of baggage (all the false teachings and hang-ups , etc.). Best way to get rid of that baggage (imo) is to tear it ALL down, right to the cornerstone (Christ) and then build you faith back up on Him and Him alone.

, But again, that's not relevant here in this thread.

The false teaching of "Hell" is absolutely relevant in this thread, because you claim that is the ENTIRE reason people have faith: their fear of "Hell", eternal torment.

OMG and on and on and on. It's been my experience that those who can't succinctly show a point have no point to prove.

You haven't shown anything either, nobspeople. You've just posted words.

I have not denied that there are such people as those who believe based upon fear. I have agreed that there are such people, because religion teaches and uses fear, and many people are looking at/listening to religion and its doctrines.

You're the one who has denied that a person can be faithful out love; want to serve out of love. Not to "get something out of it", not to avoid "eternal torment" (which does not exist), but out of love for Christ and for God.

What you are claiming is neither logical nor reasonable. People serve other people in this world out of love, without fear of being punished if they do not serve. So there is precedence for serving out of love that we can see with our own two eyes. There is no logical reason to suggest this all of a sudden can't be possible when it comes to God and His Son.

You still haven't shown how faith doesn't come from fear.

And how would you like to be shown this? The biggest reason you gave for people to have faith is fear of eternal torment in hell. For all the time I have been on this forum (and years before that), I have been consistent about there being no such thing as 'eternal torment'. I have debated it, I have argued it from what is written, from the historical perspective of what hades/sheol meant in the OT, from the point of view of love, from reason and from logic.


So the reason you provide has been taken out of the equation... how else do you expect it to be shown?


Peace again.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #22]

And how would you like to be shown this?

I've already addressed this, at least once if not twice.

The biggest reason you gave for people to have faith is fear of eternal torment in hell. For all the time I have been on this forum (and years before that), I have been consistent about there being no such thing as 'eternal torment'. I have debated it, I have argued it from what is written, from the historical perspective of what hades/sheol meant in the OT, from the point of view of love, from reason and from logic.

Maybe not even the biggest reason, but maybe the only real reason. But that's a side topic - feel free to open a thread to discuss it there.

To your other point: if you are consistent that there's no 'eternal torment', and I've posited that this is the reason, there's nothing more for you to say than "I don't believe in eternal torment" and move on!
Misguided arrogance would be expecting everyone to already know what you've said "on this forum (and years before that)" it seems.

Otherwise, it seems you're trying to justify your POV to yourself and others.

Which isn't very becoming IMO. But I'm sure that will be discounted here, as well.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #22]

And how would you like to be shown this?

I've already addressed this, at least once if not twice.

Can you elaborate? Give an example to help show what you mean?

The biggest reason you gave for people to have faith is fear of eternal torment in hell. For all the time I have been on this forum (and years before that), I have been consistent about there being no such thing as 'eternal torment'. I have debated it, I have argued it from what is written, from the historical perspective of what hades/sheol meant in the OT, from the point of view of love, from reason and from logic.

Maybe not even the biggest reason, but maybe the only real reason. But that's a side topic - feel free to open a thread to discuss it there.

How is 'eternal torment' a side topic when it is the entire basis for your claim on this thread?

To your other point: if you are consistent that there's no 'eternal torment', and I've posited that this is the reason, there's nothing more for you to say than "I don't believe in eternal torment" and move on!
Misguided arrogance would be expecting everyone to already know what you've said "on this forum (and years before that)" it seems.
Otherwise, it seems you're trying to justify your POV to yourself and others.

I'm trying to give you what you are asking for - show you somehow that faith can indeed be from love, not fear. Hence, I emphasize the things I have shared on the matter in the past, so that you can maybe accept that I mean what I say when I say I am not serving out of any fear of 'hell', that my faith is not based on any fear of 'hell'.

It is not about arrogance or justifying a pov to myself or others, or even expecting others to know what I have or have not posted. It is about sharing what is true, something that might help another person, even if just one.



Peace again to you.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #24]

Can you elaborate? Give an example to help show what you mean?

By providing logical steps and independently verifiable proof of XYZ being true and accurate.

How is 'eternal torment' a side topic when it is the entire basis for your claim on this thread?

Meaning your belief in that, not the topic itself.

I'm trying to give you what you are asking for

And failing miserably. Which is fine. If it's not there and possible, then it's not there and possible. Especially if one doesn't believe in 'eternal damnation'. You can only do what you can do - you can't make things up (well, you can, but I know you well enough to know you won't do that; we may not agree on things but I know you're a respectable person that way and wouldn't make things up to 'win an argument').

I'm just honestly at a loss, in a sense, as to why you're still harping on this subject when the premise of the thread isn't something you believe in.

You claim faith is a gift out of love.
I disagreed.
I showed that even if it's an accepted gift, it's accepted out of fear of 'eternal torment'.
You don't agree in said torment.
That should be the end of the discussion, yeah?

Why not simply say 'I don't believe in that' and move on?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #24]

Can you elaborate? Give an example to help show what you mean?

By providing logical steps and independently verifiable proof of XYZ being true and accurate.

I'm sorry, but I need an example.

How is 'eternal torment' a side topic when it is the entire basis for your claim on this thread?

Meaning your belief in that, not the topic itself.

Okay.

But if the basis of your argument has been refuted (at least for some people) - and those same people have faith - then you must acknowledge that faith can indeed be from love, not fear. Right?

I'm trying to give you what you are asking for

And failing miserably. Which is fine. If it's not there and possible, then it's not there and possible. Especially if one doesn't believe in 'eternal damnation'. You can only do what you can do - you can't make things up (well, you can, but I know you well enough to know you won't do that; we may not agree on things but I know you're a respectable person that way and wouldn't make things up to 'win an argument').

Well now you've thrown me for a loop, lol. But that was kind of you to say, so thank you.

I'm just honestly at a loss, in a sense, as to why you're still harping on this subject when the premise of the thread isn't something you believe in.

Because I thought the premise of the thread was what faith is a product of. Your question was: How is faith in god NOT a product of fear? That is what I have been responding to; I did not realize you were only addressing people who believe in eternal torment.

You have another thread somewhere that makes this clear, and I did bypass that thread.

You claim faith is a gift out of love.
I disagreed.
I showed that even if it's an accepted gift, it's accepted out of fear of 'eternal torment'.
You don't agree in said torment.
That should be the end of the discussion, yeah?

Why not simply say 'I don't believe in that' and move on?

Hopefully the above explanations help explain this (that and I also tried to respond to the follow up questions you had asked).


Peace again to you.

[brunumb]

You should fear God. If you think about it; you should fear God, the same way a dog must fear his master. The same way a child must fear their parent, especially their Father. There used to be an old saying "Wait till your father gets home!" Of course, now, there are no fathers in the home, so no one would know what that meant. "Dad" is just one of the four different child support checks coming in. ...but I digress.

God can give you cancer. God can put you in a horrible accident. God can choose that you will live moving your power chair around with a control stick you bite on. There is nothing in the OT or NT or Gospels that should ever make you think any other way than that you should fear God. And while few can imagine it, God can throw you into hell.

And then you ("you" in the general sense) say in the most pathetic indignation: "I will never serve a god like that." AS IF YOU HAD A CHOICE! You can say with your mind, "I will never bow down to that kind of god," and then he can give you dementia or schizophrenia, and you won't say anything with your mind ever again.

By just removing his protection from your life, you can lose in a day everyone you love.

He let Hitler build and use concentration death camps with industrialized killing.

But some Jews he saved. Some got away.

In fact, his love is so great for some that he protects them no matter how sinful they are, no matter what mistakes they make, no matter whether even one person in the world likes them.

Trust me, you want to strive to be someone God loves. Fear is the start of that.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #26]

I'm sorry, but I need an example.

Prove adding one apple to another, you end up with two apples.
The problem here is that with god, there is little to no proof like that. So, we're stuck in faith, which not everyone has. And we're back to square one.

But if the basis of your argument has been refuted (at least for some people) - and those same people have faith - then you must acknowledge that faith can indeed be from love, not fear. Right?

Not exactly. One has to accept the faith to have it. And, as said before, the only reason to accept it is to get to heaven, avoiding eternal damnation. Fear. You may not believe in eternal damnation. If that's the case, there's no reason to have faith, accepted or not.

Because I thought the premise of the thread was what faith is a product of. Your question was: How is faith in god NOT a product of fear? That is what I have been responding to; I did not realize you were only addressing people who believe in eternal torment.

Makes sense. I find it odd and interesting that a christian doesn't believe in eternal torment. Why be a christian at all, then? But that's for another topic I suppose.

Hopefully the above explanations help explain this (that and I also tried to respond to the follow up questions you had asked).

Yup.