Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

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Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 44, here:
EarthScienceguy wrote: Yea, I get it. You wanted your sin of choice whatever that might be. It will not make sense it will be a drive and desire to know Christ when the Holy Spirit convicts a person of their sin. The Holy Spirit has not convicted you of the sin in your life and He may never convict you of the sin in your life. But until that happens you cannot and you will not become a Chrisitan.
For debate:

What the heck is that all about, and can any of y'all put any truth to it.

Mostly the putting truth to it.
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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #81

Post by Tcg »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:41 pm Yes, atheism leads to Nihlism.
That's what some would want us to believe and at one point in my life I made the mistake of thinking it was true. Then I was introduced to the writings of Irvin D. Yalom, MD. Here was a man who was an atheist and also one who cares deeply about fellow humans. He in fact has devoted his life to helping them. One of the key issues he helps his counselees deal with is finding meaning in life. This was a revolutionary discovery. I'd been taught that atheists don't care about meaning or about their fellow humans. This man proves those myths are untrue.

Another myth he proved untrue is the idea that all atheists will try to convince others to abandon their faith. Dr. Yalom addresses his counselees within their faith framework. For instance, one of his counselees was a buddhist and rather than trying to convince her that reincarnation is invlaid, he simply used her belief in reincarnation to address some fears she had about her deceased daughter's current existence.

The discovery of this atheist's views not only taught me that some atheists do in fact care about meaning and their fellow humans, but also that in many cases reality concerning atheists is often misunderstood and misrepresented.
I think all kinds of meanings in life transcend your self. They're linked to other generations of people around us, to our children and our family. We're passing on something of ourselves to others. I feel that's what makes our life full of meaning.

- Irvin D. Yalom, MD

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #82

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to brunumb in post #77]
Wrong on both counts. We do have moral principles, just not necessarily those allegedly prescribed by some god. And without religion many of us still find life meaningful.
What are you basing those morals on? Why do you believe that something is right and why do you believe something is wrong?

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #83

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Tcg in post #81]
I think all kinds of meanings in life transcend your self. They're linked to other generations of people around us, to our children and our family. We're passing on something of ourselves to others. I feel that's what makes our life full of meaning.

- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
Why would this be meaningful to him?

Sartre said that one may create meaning for life by choosing freely choosing to follow a certain course of action. Sartre chose Marxism. Why didn't Yalom choose Marxism to make himself happy. Psychologists say that this is not some noble deed but simply caused by one of the following.

Sigmund Freud would say that Yalom is doing this simply as a result of various repressed sexual tendencies.
Skinner would say that that what Yalom is doing is simply because of conditioning and freedom of choice is an illusion.
Crick would say it is nothing more than electro-chemical process in the brain that is controlled by the genetic code. So this would not be any different than a serial killer whose genetic code programed him to kill.

This would not be any Noble purpose it is simply a product of psychology according to atheism.

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #84

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Butting in....
EarthScienceguy wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:31 am What are you basing those morals on?
I base my moral values on what I consider right and wrong.
Why do you believe that something is right and why do you believe something is wrong?
Cause I have empathy.

I need no gods to tell me it's wrong to just go up and pull a woman's clothes off.

Nor do I need any gods to tell me to be proud if she just up and does it herself. Though a financial reward may be in order.


We find our morality in our life experiences. From our parents, teachers, role models, and all such as that.

If only for me, pushing moral decisions off onto a god I can't show has an opinion on em, is to toss aside any sense of personal responsibility.

I alone am the arbiter of my morality. So I alone carry the responsibility to ensure my morality is good, and just, and right.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #85

Post by nobspeople »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:31 am [Replying to brunumb in post #77]
Wrong on both counts. We do have moral principles, just not necessarily those allegedly prescribed by some god. And without religion many of us still find life meaningful.
What are you basing those morals on? Why do you believe that something is right and why do you believe something is wrong?
Morality changes over time, person and culture.
Personally (though I'm not an achiest), my morals started off by what I was told as a child. As I grew and matured, some of them changed, I decided one 'new' ones and I 'chucked' the 'old' or original ones.
For me, the same can be said of 'right and wrong'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #86

Post by JoeyKnothead »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:06 am [Replying to Tcg in post #81]
I think all kinds of meanings in life transcend your self. They're linked to other generations of people around us, to our children and our family. We're passing on something of ourselves to others. I feel that's what makes our life full of meaning.

- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
Why would this be meaningful to him?

Sartre said that one may create meaning for life by choosing freely choosing to follow a certain course of action. Sartre chose Marxism. Why didn't Yalom choose Marxism to make himself happy. Psychologists say that this is not some noble deed but simply caused by one of the following.

Sigmund Freud would say that Yalom is doing this simply as a result of various repressed sexual tendencies.
Skinner would say that that what Yalom is doing is simply because of conditioning and freedom of choice is an illusion.
Crick would say it is nothing more than electro-chemical process in the brain that is controlled by the genetic code. So this would not be any different than a serial killer whose genetic code programed him to kill.

This would not be any Noble purpose it is simply a product of psychology according to atheism.
I can't escape the thought you've heard so many folks tell their version of morality, you're not finding your own.

Now that there, that might come across as me trying to insult ya. But it ain't. I ain't no better'n you. Sure ain't no smarter.

It's a sincere comment on how you've mentioned so many other folks about em, but ain't really said much about your own.


"If you're an atheist, where do you get your morals?" That right there's a common question from theists.

To which I ask, "Ain't you ever thunk you up just one single moral rule / value all by yourself?"
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #87

Post by nobspeople »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:26 am
EarthScienceguy wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:06 am [Replying to Tcg in post #81]
I think all kinds of meanings in life transcend your self. They're linked to other generations of people around us, to our children and our family. We're passing on something of ourselves to others. I feel that's what makes our life full of meaning.

- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
Why would this be meaningful to him?

Sartre said that one may create meaning for life by choosing freely choosing to follow a certain course of action. Sartre chose Marxism. Why didn't Yalom choose Marxism to make himself happy. Psychologists say that this is not some noble deed but simply caused by one of the following.

Sigmund Freud would say that Yalom is doing this simply as a result of various repressed sexual tendencies.
Skinner would say that that what Yalom is doing is simply because of conditioning and freedom of choice is an illusion.
Crick would say it is nothing more than electro-chemical process in the brain that is controlled by the genetic code. So this would not be any different than a serial killer whose genetic code programed him to kill.

This would not be any Noble purpose it is simply a product of psychology according to atheism.
I can't escape the thought you've heard so many folks tell their version of morality, you're not finding your own.

Now that there, that might come across as me trying to insult ya. But it ain't. I ain't no better'n you. Sure ain't no smarter.

It's a sincere comment on how you've mentioned so many other folks about em, but ain't really said much about your own.


"If you're an atheist, where do you get your morals?" That right there's a common question from theists.

To which I ask, "Ain't you ever thunk you up just one single moral rule / value all by yourself?"
Billy Bob christians don't have to 'think' like you're suggesting. They simply need to 'follow', 'pray' and 'believe' - the 'thinking' has been done for them.
When believers think, it oft times draws them away from their belief. And their god doesn't want that (or more correctly, their church leader doesn't want that).
That's not to say NO christian 'thinks' (there're some brilliant christians throughout history). But, by in large, they simply need to follow, believe, pray and surrender to god.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #88

Post by William »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #87]
When believers think, it oft times draws them away from their belief. And their god doesn't want that (or more correctly, their church leader doesn't want that).
It is a combination of both.

The image of "God" seeded into the mind of the individual believer, through whichever book/set of books the leader is focused upon and filters through his/her understanding and the preaching/teaching from the pulpit/central object the adherent is focusing on.

The image of these type of "Gods" have it that they don't want you thinking for yourself - but paying attention to what they have to say through the leaders.

This type of activity happens in all aspects of human society and is not limited to just theism.

Folk such as myself are often seen to be on 'the fringe' in relation to how others generally think, be they theist or non-theist.

The human individual cannot 'learn' for him/herself entirely on their own, so they have to find a way in which to filter information in the best possible way, even if that does mean being on the fringe...

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #89

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to William in post #88]
It is a combination of both.
Agreed, but for very different reasons (maybe?)
This type of activity happens in all aspects of human society and is not limited to just theism.
Agreed
Folk such as myself are often seen to be on 'the fringe' in relation to how others generally think, be they theist or non-theist.
Not that it's thread dependent, but why do you think that is? What is it about 'you' and or your belief that makes it this way? I'm not wanting to argue about it, simply curious.

[
The human individual cannot 'learn' for him/herself entirely on their own, so they have to find a way in which to filter information in the best possible way, even if that does mean being on the fringe...
Agreed. The issue here, is, finding the balance between learning on their own and with assistance.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Folks, sin, and the holy thing there

Post #90

Post by Tcg »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:06 am [Replying to Tcg in post #81]
I think all kinds of meanings in life transcend your self. They're linked to other generations of people around us, to our children and our family. We're passing on something of ourselves to others. I feel that's what makes our life full of meaning.

- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
Why would this be meaningful to him?
He explains it clearly. People. If you need more details I'd suggest you read his works.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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