No devil no christianity

[nobspeople]

Christianity is the belief in and worship of a being that can get people to heaven, according to some (the method of this is immaterial to this discussion).
Some claim they're christian because of the 'love of god'. That's not true no matter how much they claim as, without the heaven reward and hell punishment, there's no reason to 'love' or 'worship' god. That said, without the devil to tempt people (be it the terribly misguided concept of original sin filtering its way into humanity or the idea of 'people are imperfect and will sin even if there was no original sin') there would be no reason for hell to exist (hell being a punishment for eternity, for a period of time, or simply a removal from god's presence).
For discussion:
If there was no devil to temp people and thus, remove them from god's presence, there would be no need for heaven at all. So, without the devil temping, would this mean there's no need for any christianity?

[Avoice]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

He needs your obedience

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

He needs your obedience

Why do you think so?

[Avoice]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

Let me rephrase that. God needs nothing.
He wants you to obey him. Why that is only he knows. He just does.

[Hawkins]

The OP got it wrong. Christianity is about a God who is going to create an eternity we call Heaven (the more accurate description is the New Heaven and New Earth). Law is thus defined to qualified entities with free will to enter this eternity, to live with a righteous and sin-incompatible God. Men and angels are the entities given free will, while in the end, free will means one has the ability to choose to oppose God, as identified by Law.

"Loving God" is a must in order to live with such a God in eternity. That's the base of how Law and commandments and covenants are defined, as Jesus put. To a certain extent, Law is about what a righteous and sin-incompatible God likes and dislikes whereas sin itself actually means the breaking of Law. Logically and naturally, as a result of your own free will either you end up with this God or you are not. There's nothing in between. When you are not, you are naturally in hell as everything good is created by this God. This universe is not a natural environment, it is a God-made environment. Hell is thus the natural environment where nothing is beneficial from God's creations.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to Hawkins in post #14]

A few questions:

Did God make the Devil and give him/it free will?
You say God's going to create this heaven. Does that mean it's not yet built? If so, where are all the angels currently that God created?

To a certain extent, Law is about what a righteous and sin-incompatible God likes and dislikes

Might God occasionally change his mind about what he likes and dislikes? How would one know?
What's 'hell' like? Apart from 'not good', we haven't got much of a description. Is it worse than Detroit? Tijuana? Baghdad?
Does the Devil try to tempt people into sin? Can they sin all on their own without the Devil's influence? Would God make an exception for a sinner that had been 'leant on' particularly heavily by the Devil - and who probably wouldn't have sinned if left alone?

Hell is thus the natural environment where nothing is beneficial from God's creations.

Sorry, but I can't make any sense from this. Can you re-word it, please?

[Athetotheist]

As far as I can tell, the "devil" of Christian belief is less like ha-satan of Judaism and more like Angra Mainyu of Zoroastrian belief which, it's fairly evident, had an influence on the post-exile Jews of the time in which Christianity started.

[David Davidovich]

Christianity is the belief in and worship of a being that can get people to heaven, according to some (the method of this is immaterial to this discussion).
Some claim they're christian because of the 'love of god'. That's not true no matter how much they claim as, without the heaven reward and hell punishment, there's no reason to 'love' or 'worship' god. That said, without the devil to tempt people (be it the terribly misguided concept of original sin filtering its way into humanity or the idea of 'people are imperfect and will sin even if there was no original sin') there would be no reason for hell to exist (hell being a punishment for eternity, for a period of time, or simply a removal from god's presence).
For discussion:
If there was no devil to temp people and thus, remove them from god's presence, there would be no need for heaven at all. So, without the devil temping, would this mean there's no need for any christianity?

You make some interesting points, nobspeople. Because from my understanding of Christian theology, even Jesus had prophecies that showed that in the end, he would be rewarded with a heavenly reward. Therefore, without that heavenly reward, would Jesus have gone through what he went through?

Also, as far as the devil goes, the concept of the devil in Christianity is an integral part of Christian theology, therefore, without it, the whole thing falls apart at least for fundamentalist Christians. However, for progressive Christians who don't believe in a literal devil, I'll have to admit that I really don't understand how that works with their theology.

[David Davidovich]

As far as I can tell, the "devil" of Christian belief is less like ha-satan of Judaism and more like Angra Mainyu of Zoroastrian belief which, it's fairly evident, had an influence on the post-exile Jews of the time in which Christianity started.

That's true. Also, most Christians (if not all) are unaware of that.

[nobspeople]

Christianity is the belief in and worship of a being that can get people to heaven, according to some (the method of this is immaterial to this discussion).
Some claim they're christian because of the 'love of god'. That's not true no matter how much they claim as, without the heaven reward and hell punishment, there's no reason to 'love' or 'worship' god. That said, without the devil to tempt people (be it the terribly misguided concept of original sin filtering its way into humanity or the idea of 'people are imperfect and will sin even if there was no original sin') there would be no reason for hell to exist (hell being a punishment for eternity, for a period of time, or simply a removal from god's presence).
For discussion:
If there was no devil to temp people and thus, remove them from god's presence, there would be no need for heaven at all. So, without the devil temping, would this mean there's no need for any christianity?

You make some interesting points, nobspeople. Because from my understanding of Christian theology, even Jesus had prophecies that showed that in the end, he would be rewarded with a heavenly reward. Therefore, without that heavenly reward, would Jesus have gone through what he went through?

Also, as far as the devil goes, the concept of the devil in Christianity is an integral part of Christian theology, therefore, without it, the whole thing falls apart at least for fundamentalist Christians. However, for progressive Christians who don't believe in a literal devil, I'll have to admit that I really don't understand how that works with their theology.

You make an interesting point about 'would jesus have done what he did if there was no reward'. That's a very human concept. But from what I've been told and taught, jesus wasn't concerned about reward (as he has already been there, according to some teachings, though not all christians would believe this I suspect), but he was a sacrifice. One that no one asked for from what I can tell, which is another topic altogether.
Still, very interesting idea you bring forward - which is always good IMO. Thanks!