Pearls wasted?

[Rose2020]

Mathew Chapter 7. Verse 6.

Could it be that Jesus meant we ought not to waste time and energy arguing with atheists?

[Miles]

Mathew Chapter 7. Verse 6.

Could it be that Jesus meant we ought not to waste time and energy arguing with atheists?

Let's hope so. Theists make such a mess of their arguments against atheism, usually going off on all kinds of irrelevant tangents. Best they stay at home reading their Bibles or saying their "Hail Marys."


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[benchwarmer]

Mathew Chapter 7. Verse 6.

Could it be that Jesus meant we ought not to waste time and energy arguing with atheists?

We'll never know what Jesus really meant or if he even said this. All we know for sure is that the anonymous author of Matthew claimed Jesus said this.

I find the phrase the retort of those who think themselves "in the know" and trying to denigrate those who they think unable to comprehend and/or appreciate their beliefs.

In the context of theism versus atheism, it seems to be used when convincing evidence can't be given instead. In other words, "I have nothing beyond the claims in the Bible and I believe them to be true. If you don't believe them, comprehend them, and appreciate them, then you are beneath me". Or as I like to call it "a final ad hominem attack when the debate is lost".

[TRANSPONDER]

Mathew Chapter 7. Verse 6.

Could it be that Jesus meant we ought not to waste time and energy arguing with atheists?

Pretty much. But there are also passages that suggest that it is the Christian duty to show non -believers and wrong -believers the error of their ways and save them from whatever is going to be done to them by a merciful and loving God for the crime of not Believing Right. And Paul I recall advised his Christians to give an answer to any question the unbelievers might put to them.

Of course the intent there is for the True Believers to lecture the others, who should keep their traps shut and not argue. But what happens now is that we shall indeed turn and rend the Preacher. Figuratively.

Which means that the dubious claims, weakly - founded beliefs and shambolic arguments will be rended like a threadbare robe and the Believer, like Mark's young man, will flee naked away into their own darkness.

And in the interests of modern -day sexual equality we shall treat young ladies exactly the same way.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Rose2020 in post #1]

It's not likely. He referred to dogs and pigs. He reportedly once called a Canaanite woman a dog (what a charmer that guy) not because she was an atheist but because she wasn't a Jew.

Matthew 15:24 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

It of course isn't uncommon to encounter this as excuse to abandon a debate which always leaves me thinking, what pearls?


Tcg

[Rose2020]

What do atheists want here on this forum anyway? Just out of curiosity and asking with respect.

As for the nature of these pearls. Well, the Bible is filled with all the pearls of wisdom anyone could ever desire to be blessed with.

[TRANSPONDER]

What do atheists want here on this forum anyway? Just out of curiosity and asking with respect.

As for the nature of these pearls. Well, the Bible is filled with all the pearls of wisdom anyone could ever desire to be blessed with.

What do we want? A voice. Something I have seen from the 8O's when the polemical battle entered the Internet was:

(1) Fundamentalist religion swamped the Internet with ID propaganda.

(2) Atheism pushed back, refuting the Fundamentalist arguments;

(3) The Fundamentalists tried to demonize the atheists as 'New Atheists' (it was the same atheism but only 'New' in having a voice, through the Internet). As soon as I arrived on the debate forums, I was aware of an underlying prayer of the Religious: 'Atheists - please shut up and go away'.

Your post above is in fact symptomatic of this. Politely and respectfully put, it is nevertheless 'Why don't you atheists shut up and go away?' Why are we here at all? Why do we debate religion? Because religion would love to preach and never be questioned. They survive on never being questioned. We owe it to those whose minds are not already made up to put the other side. Otherwise religion could tell all sorts of lies (or fallacies) and nobody would call them on it.

What fallacies, one may ask? Just take one - regarded as a sure fire atheism debunker:

"the odds against life getting to where it is through sheer chance are astronomical".

The fallacy is (as usual) assuming an intended outcome (I/D), which being reached by random throwing of the biochemical mix in one throw would indeed be astronomical odds.

But if NO intended outcome (unplanned natural design) is assumed, then whatever happens by the unplanned natural processes are...whatever we get, and the odds are 1/!1.

But we'd never hear the refutation from the Religious side, even if they thought of it, which they won't. Whether the effort is effective is not certain, but I know the message is getting out. The moral apologetic has gone down the tube. And I saw (in debating the Exodus) that the Internet does now have the idea that Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt may actually be based on Ahmose I kicking the Canaanites out of Egypt. Which was something I didn't see it the past.

I haven't seen much in the way of the conclusive debunk of the Nativity - apologetic (2nd census argument), nor the debunk of the Resurrection - claims through textural comparison, but I trust that these realisations will get out into the Internet in due course.

And it's only by Us being here that this will get done. And you know one of the best drivers are the Theists who question everything we say. I have learned a huge amount in the debate with otseng. And it has led to a sound case, I think, that was never there before.

So lots of reasons - to discuss, learn and improve our understanding. And of course to call out the Religious on their claims

And 'Not arguin' Just tellin'" will not wash and never did. The theist apologists always thought they could preach and peddle religious claims without being called on it. No more; never again.

Oh yes; the pearls of wisdom. Quite some time ago, I got into the habit of quoting pearls of wisdom during debates. Not only from the Bible, but also from Star -trek, Peanuts and other books.

The point being that such pearls of wisdom are human pearls of wisdom and you can find as good or better outside of the Bible. And if they are not more honest than the Biblical twisting of such wisdom (e.g the inversion of the Golden rule into a pestilential preachers' charter) they are at least open to doubt and question, whereas we are supposed to say "Wah!" in awe at anything out of the Bible, even if it is as daft and impractical as giving all you have to the poor, because of course, he'd then have to give it all back.

[benchwarmer]

What do atheists want here on this forum anyway? Just out of curiosity and asking with respect.

It's right there in the title of the website. Debate.

I find it telling (though not necessarily leveling this at you), but often one of the final desperate cries of an apologist losing a debate with an atheist is "Why do you even care?! You don't believe in any of this stuff, why are you wasting your time with it?"

As Transponder has aptly put it "Please shut up and go away". If apologists are so sure of their convincing arguments, it should be the opposite.

For example, I welcome theistic debaters trotting out obviously bad arguments and claiming they are victorious. It's like they are on my side and don't even know it

As for the nature of these pearls. Well, the Bible is filled with all the pearls of wisdom anyone could ever desire to be blessed with.

You mean like this pearl?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

That's some real wisdom there. Clearly from a loving god!

If there is a god, I'm pretty sure it's rather embarrassed by what some people have written down in it's name. Or more likely, simply dismisses it as humans lying to other humans in the quest for power and control.

[Tcg]

As for the nature of these pearls. Well, the Bible is filled with all the pearls of wisdom anyone could ever desire to be blessed with.

Here's one of those "pearls" that did get cast:

He was clearly saying some people will be viewed by God as "human garbage". You dont torture your garbage; you dispose of it and forget it.

What a "blessing" huh?


Tcg

[Rose2020]

I cannot imagine reading the Bible and acquiring a good knowledge of it, just so I could disprove it by arguing with Christians.
By the same logic I wonder if atheists read the Koran and other religions scriptures with the aim to join forums and argue against believers?
It sounds like a lot of trouble to go to.

When I was a non believer many years ago, a confirmed atheist in fact, I simply ignored all religions as a lot of nonsense.