Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Argue for and against Christianity

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nobspeople
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Right for life - can you have it both ways?

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Post by nobspeople »

Typically, christians don't approve of abortion, citing the 'preciousness of life', among other things.
Do these same christians oppose the death penalty? Should they?

For discussion:
Is it hypocritical to oppose abortion but support the death penalty? Or, like all things christian, you simply ignore one aspect of this faith while holding on tight to another to support your POV?
Is the 'abortion vs. death penalty' thinking (abortion = bad death penalty = good) nothing more than a male dominated religion further suppressing women? Maybe this helps understand why god's considered male and not female?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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tokutter
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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

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Post by tokutter »

The Tanager wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:14 pm
tokutter wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:37 pm Right to life??

What about all the children who never were given life by Christians for whatever reason. My sister is a Christian, she had one child, she's 50 and healthy her whole life. How many children "If she could have asked them" would have wanted life? But wait there can't be a reason can there? Christians don't want to allow any reasons for someone's unwanted pregnancy. In fact it's worse isn't it. It's completely thought out and premeditated, NO I'm not bringing life into the world. Unlike someone who maybe wanted to have children later but .....ooops.

In the end all this flailing about moral or immoral about abortion or any other issue is moot. Jesus's get out of jail free card allows for you to do anything.........just bend the knee. From what I gather Jeffrey Dahmer has his hand stamped to get into the club house. Christianity allows for Joe Stalin (their favorite atheist poster boy) to have come to Christ the night he died........................and it's all good.

Is it any wonder this product has sold so well.
What do you mean "children who never were given life by Christians"? Children don't exist until the egg and sperm unite. Not allowing egg and sperm to unite is not the same thing as going against the desires or drives of actual beings.

And what do you mean about Christians not allowing reasons for unwanted pregnancies? That they don't realize the competing desires? That they just don't think they are good reasons for not wanting a pregnancy? Something else?

I'm also not clear on what you mean about "wanted to have children later but...ooops". Could you clarify that for me a little better?
It's a common trope used against pregnancy termination by the pro life.....just ran into it on facebook....Guy talking (not getting into the whole story) about how he's fishing with his 6 yr old boy and how could he and his wife ever have thought about terminating the pregnancy....WELL don't stop your thinking there.......what about his brother and sister who are not sitting beside their brother because of decisions you and you wife made and actions they took to stop any more kids from getting life (i don't care the reasons)

The present state of what is being pumped out by lets face it............far right Christian evangelicals (We just got a look into what inside Alito's dome) is not even allowed for rape or incest.

the "ooops" comment...........let's face it people have sex 95 percent of the time for the sex .......not to make kiddies........even the most careful have oooops moments.......hey!!sorry bout your luck.........but the Christians who didn't ooops keep pounding away still stopping children from having life. To me there is no difference.

next to go will be birth control (so say the Catholics)....with their family planning, which is birth control without the pill

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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Post #82

Post by Clownboat »

The Tanager wrote:I am against abortion and killing an innocent adult because I believe (1) it is morally wrong to kill an innocent human being and (2) that both adults and fetuses are human beings. I think (2) is clearly the case biologically.
Copy/paste to save time: "Comparing an unwanted fetus to an adult is a total fail of logic. It being the best you have should give you pause."

You really need to stop, or defend your stance and explain to us how an unwanted fetus is comparable to a human adult. As it stands, it seems like you are just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the glaring differences. I can't begin to see your point if you fail to make it.
Clownboat wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:58 pmI'm with you though. I don't like the idea of abortions being a need as it currently is, but I'm less ok with increasing misery and burdens on society. I just don't happen to care much for unnecessary suffering and seek to lessen it. If there was a god, I assume it would approve of my behavior. Those arguing to increase such, well... they made their bed, they will have to sleep in it (if there is a carring god that is).
Population control, on those now living, could ease overall suffering and the burden on the rest of society, too.
Make your case. Be mindful, you are no longer talking about unwanted fetuses that have a less then 50% chance to make it to the baby stage. Good luck, I await your best arguments.
I don’t think that makes it okay. I’m not for increasing suffering in itself; I’m against thinking that easing the overall suffering trumps all else. I’m for people having to sacrifice less, but I don’t think living a life free (or more free) of sacrifice trumps the right to life of other human beings.
Please explain this 'right to life' that a fetus has. Keep in mind, a fetus has less then a 50% chance of being born. Thus I wonder what right you are even speaking to.

Again, I'm with you. I don't like abortions, but you are failing to make a case as to why they should be illegal. I also don't think you have addressed how all life can be precious while accepting the death penalty.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Post #83

Post by The Tanager »

tokutter wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 2:57 pmIt's a common trope used against pregnancy termination by the pro life.....just ran into it on facebook....Guy talking (not getting into the whole story) about how he's fishing with his 6 yr old boy and how could he and his wife ever have thought about terminating the pregnancy....WELL don't stop your thinking there.......what about his brother and sister who are not sitting beside their brother because of decisions you and you wife made and actions they took to stop any more kids from getting life (i don't care the reasons)

But one is the decision (according to biology) of ending the life of a human being, while the other is the decision (according to biology) of ending the life of a sperm and an egg.
tokutter wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 2:57 pmthe "ooops" comment...........let's face it people have sex 95 percent of the time for the sex .......not to make kiddies........even the most careful have oooops moments.......hey!!sorry bout your luck.........but the Christians who didn't ooops keep pounding away still stopping children from having life. To me there is no difference.

People hardly ever drink alcohol and drive in order to kill people, but that accidentally happens as well and is well known to be a possibility of choosing to get drunk.

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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Post #84

Post by The Tanager »

Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pmYou really need to stop, or defend your stance and explain to us how an unwanted fetus is comparable to a human adult. As it stands, it seems like you are just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the glaring differences. I can't begin to see your point if you fail to make it.

(1) I’ll try to flesh out what I’ve said to make it clearer. I believe human beings have intrinsic moral value grounded in being made in God’s image. Human beings are ends in themselves, not things to be used for other ends.

(2) What a human being is is defined by biology. Both adults and fetuses (wanted and unwanted) are human beings.

Therefore, I’m against killing both adults and fetuses (wanted and unwanted). Do you disagree with (1) or (2)?
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pmMake your case. Be mindful, you are no longer talking about unwanted fetuses that have a less then 50% chance to make it to the baby stage. Good luck, I await your best arguments.

For the exact same reasons you gave. To undertake population control would lead to less misery and less burdens on society as a whole, since we could better care for smaller numbers of the population (also extending beyond just humans) with the resources we have. Those who are against population control are choosing more misery and more burden on society, it seems.
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pmI also don't think you have addressed how all life can be precious while accepting the death penalty.

I believe in the concept of the death penalty being just in certain circumstances, but I don’t believe those circumstances are around today. Where the death penalty is most likely necessary to protect the lives of others, I see that as viewing life as more precious then not killing the murderer.

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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Post #85

Post by Clownboat »

Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pmYou really need to stop, or defend your stance and explain to us how an unwanted fetus is comparable to a human adult. As it stands, it seems like you are just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the glaring differences. I can't begin to see your point if you fail to make it.
(1) I’ll try to flesh out what I’ve said to make it clearer. I believe human beings have intrinsic moral value grounded in being made in God’s image. Human beings are ends in themselves, not things to be used for other ends.
To which I have countered by claiming that actual humans have more value than a fetus and I continue to point out that your argument fails because to comparing an unwanted fetus to an adult is a total fail of logic.

Fetus that a mother literally wants removed from her body does not equal an adult.
Then there is the fact that over 50% of pregnancies don't make it to birth, making your god the ultimate abortionist.
(2) What a human being is is defined by biology. Both adults and fetuses (wanted and unwanted) are human beings.
Then you fail for making nothing but an emotional argument. You acknowledge the differences (some are a thing that is wanted while the other is a thing that is not wanted) while ignoring that difference only to pretend they are the same (both human beings). To grant you in this debate that an adult and unwanted fetus are the same thing is unjustified, even if you want to consider both to be human beings.

I'm talking about an orange and you are talking about a apple. If I point out the differences between the two, the differences we are discussing don't go away by claiming they are both fruits. This is all you are doing here.
Therefore, I’m against killing both adults and fetuses (wanted and unwanted). Do you disagree with (1) or (2)?
Yes. 1 is illogical and 2 is playing pretend and is emotional. I get it, my emotions also hate the idea of an abortion.
Don’t Let Emotions Screw Up Your Decisions - Havard Business Review
https://hbr.org/2015/05/dont-let-emotio ... -decisions
Yet intense emotions may lead us to make misguided decisions or outright disastrous ones.
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pmMake your case. Be mindful, you are no longer talking about unwanted fetuses that have a less then 50% chance to make it to the baby stage. Good luck, I await your best arguments.
For the exact same reasons you gave. To undertake population control would lead to less misery and less burdens on society as a whole, since we could better care for smaller numbers of the population (also extending beyond just humans) with the resources we have. Those who are against population control are choosing more misery and more burden on society, it seems.
I'm sorry, I value humans to much to cull the existing hurd and I will not pretend that to remove humans that desire to live would be to add misery. Do unto others comes to mind.

Do Christians not read their own holy book?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Post #86

Post by The Tanager »

Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pmTo which I have countered by claiming that actual humans have more value than a fetus and I continue to point out that your argument fails because to comparing an unwanted fetus to an adult is a total fail of logic.

Fetus that a mother literally wants removed from her body does not equal an adult.

Why do adults have more value than a fetus?
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pmThen there is the fact that over 50% of pregnancies don't make it to birth, making your god the ultimate abortionist.

Our natural world, by its nature, allows for natural miscarriages. To take that possibility away, we would be changing the very structure of reality. I see no reason to believe alternative possibilities would necessarily be better realities overall, which is what a creator would be judged by.
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pmThen you fail for making nothing but an emotional argument. You acknowledge the differences (some are a thing that is wanted while the other is a thing that is not wanted) while ignoring that difference only to pretend they are the same (both human beings). To grant you in this debate that an adult and unwanted fetus are the same thing is unjustified, even if you want to consider both to be human beings.

No, you are talking about an orange and I’m talking about an orange seed, if you want to be more accurate with that kind of analogy.

How is appealing to science an emotional argument? Of course there are differences between adults and fetuses, but the question is whether those differences matter in regards to value. You, I’m sure, believe there are differences between adults (skin color, hobbies, etc.) that don’t matter in regards to value while treating those adults the same in regards to value. I’m doing the same thing. We simply differ on what characteristics inform value.
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pm
(1) I’ll try to flesh out what I’ve said to make it clearer. I believe human beings have intrinsic moral value grounded in being made in God’s image. Human beings are ends in themselves, not things to be used for other ends.

1 is illogical

How is the above illogical?
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pm
For the exact same reasons you gave. To undertake population control would lead to less misery and less burdens on society as a whole, since we could better care for smaller numbers of the population (also extending beyond just humans) with the resources we have. Those who are against population control are choosing more misery and more burden on society, it seems.

I'm sorry, I value humans to much to cull the existing hurd and I will not pretend that to remove humans that desire to live would be to add misery. Do unto others comes to mind.

Do Christians not read their own holy book?

Obviously, I’m not personally arguing for population control; I’m using the same logic you just used in arguing for allowing abortions. Killing adults would decrease the overall misery and burden level in society. To use these reasons to justify abortions but go against them to justify not partaking in population control is inconsistent.

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Re: Right for life - can you have it both ways?

Post #87

Post by Clownboat »

Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pmTo which I have countered by claiming that actual humans have more value than a fetus and I continue to point out that your argument fails because to comparing an unwanted fetus to an adult is a total fail of logic.

Fetus that a mother literally wants removed from her body does not equal an adult.
The Tanager wrote:Why do adults have more value than a fetus?
That would vary from person to person, but for a thought experiment, ask yourself if you would prefer to lose your spouse, or a zygote/fetus. You will choose the one with more value. Then ask yourself why you made the choice you did.
The Tanager wrote:Our natural world, by its nature, allows for natural miscarriages. To take that possibility away, we would be changing the very structure of reality. I see no reason to believe alternative possibilities would necessarily be better realities overall, which is what a creator would be judged by.
It's funny to me just how ok with abortions you actually are. :-D
I'm not a fan of abortions myself. At least I'm consistent.
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pmThen you fail for making nothing but an emotional argument. You acknowledge the differences (some are a thing that is wanted while the other is a thing that is not wanted) while ignoring that difference only to pretend they are the same (both human beings). To grant you in this debate that an adult and unwanted fetus are the same thing is unjustified, even if you want to consider both to be human beings.
No, you are talking about an orange and I’m talking about an orange seed, if you want to be more accurate with that kind of analogy.
:lol: The next time you are hungry or thirsty, I'll give you an orange seed!
Either way, this is nothing more than an attempt to distract away from the fact you are ignoring major differences in an attempt to pretend they are similar concepts.
How is appealing to science an emotional argument?
It's not.
Of course there are differences between adults and fetuses, but the question is whether those differences matter in regards to value. You, I’m sure, believe there are differences between adults (skin color, hobbies, etc.) that don’t matter in regards to value while treating those adults the same in regards to value. I’m doing the same thing. We simply differ on what characteristics inform value.
False. An adult has more value than a fetus/zygote. Characteristics come in to play, but the statement stands on its own.
How is the above illogical?
You keep referring to fetuses/zygotes (things that get aborted) as being human beings. I'm trying to be accurate, you are trying to be emotional. When discussing abortion specifically, it is illogical to pretend we abort humans. Words have meaning and you are for emotional reasons using less accurate terms.
Clownboat wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:48 pm
For the exact same reasons you gave. To undertake population control would lead to less misery and less burdens on society as a whole, since we could better care for smaller numbers of the population (also extending beyond just humans) with the resources we have. Those who are against population control are choosing more misery and more burden on society, it seems.

I'm sorry, I value humans to much to cull the existing hurd and I will not pretend that to remove humans that desire to live would be to add misery. Do unto others comes to mind.

Do Christians not read their own holy book?
Obviously, I’m not personally arguing for population control; I’m using the same logic you just used in arguing for allowing abortions. Killing adults would decrease the overall misery and burden level in society.
False. Would it cause you or those who know you misery if you were to be killed? If I were killed, I can point to many instances of misery that would be caused.
Again, losing a fetus can be a travesty sometimes (when it happens naturally it's not even a big deal to you), losing a child is life changing and doesn't compare. Yet you seem to ignore this. Also, notice that if I were to just refer to both here as 'human beings', my statement loses all meaning. Yet this seems to be a desire for you when discussing abortion.
To use these reasons to justify abortions but go against them to justify not partaking in population control is inconsistent.
Good thing I don't do that and instead I argue to lessen overall misery on society. Your example failed, that is not my fault.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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