Right for life - can you have it both ways?

[nobspeople]

Typically, christians don't approve of abortion, citing the 'preciousness of life', among other things.
Do these same christians oppose the death penalty? Should they?

For discussion:
Is it hypocritical to oppose abortion but support the death penalty? Or, like all things christian, you simply ignore one aspect of this faith while holding on tight to another to support your POV?
Is the 'abortion vs. death penalty' thinking (abortion = bad death penalty = good) nothing more than a male dominated religion further suppressing women? Maybe this helps understand why god's considered male and not female?

[Clownboat]

...
Is it hypocritical to oppose abortion but support the death penalty?...

Only if the baby deserves death penalty. But, if the baby doesn't deserve death penalty, is it ok to sacrifice him anyway so that the parents would get a better life as a reward?

You attempt to make this emotional when you use the language you use.

In reality, as cold as it sounds, these fetuses (you refer to a death penalty of babies to appeal to emotions) are unwanted. There are about 40 - 50 million abortions on the planet per year. What is the desired amount of unwanted fetuses you would like to see be forced to be carried to term by mothers that have deemed them as something that they don't want?

https://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

I'm not a fan of abortions myself, but these emotional arguments seem to ignore reality. Think it through and follow the argument to its logical conclusion (we now have mothers forced to care for 40 - 50 million babies that have been deemed as being unwanted). "We need to save unwanted fetuses" is just an odd concept for me to wrap my head around and the idea that we would now have a majority of these babies being raised in an unhealthy environment is a diservice to humanity. It's like losing money on every job you do, thinking you will make it up in volume. It's a losing proposition from where I sit.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #21]

these emotional arguments seem to ignore reality.

That's par for the course for Billy Bob christian: follow 'with your heart' and don't think too much. I think this happens way too much specifically with believers in (whatever). But for Billy Bob christian, it's follow, pray, submit, hope. Oh and don't forget the tithe. That's THE most important one!

But I get the idea of 'preserving life'. More people means potentially more 'christian soldiers (aka $, power and influence). So we must legislate this, instead of grass root campaigns OR supporting birth control (for those that think birth control is somehow thwarting god's plan or whatever). It's easier that way - patrons don't have to 'get their hands dirty'. Just sit back in your comfy chair and legislate away your problems from their warm (or cool) home (which god didn't buy them)!

The 'life is precious' campaign is simply a way for some to hide their hate and issues with control behind. It allows them self justification to control others while, simultaneously killing off those that 'offend' (for those that are anti-abortion but pro death penalty).

Just be honest about it: you want more babies and less 'scumbags'! But Billy Bob christian isn't honest. And thus, here we are.

[1213]

... Think it through and follow the argument to its logical conclusion (we now have mothers forced to care for 40 - 50 million babies that have been deemed as being unwanted). ...

If the unwanted babies would be allowed to live, how many of them would say that they don't want to live, they rather die? I can believe their parents and society wants them dead, but maybe what matters most is, do the children want to be dead.

I think abortion is ok only if those who want abortion are aborted.

[Clownboat]

... Think it through and follow the argument to its logical conclusion (we now have mothers forced to care for 40 - 50 million babies that have been deemed as being unwanted). ...

If the unwanted babies would be allowed to live, how many of them would say that they don't want to live, they rather die?

Hard to know. I suggest you look at general suicide numbers and add to it due to the fact we are talking about unwanted babies raised (for the most part) by mothers that do not want them to exist. Therefore the suicide rates would higher. Could you imagine being raised by a mother that didn't want you? Sounds terrible to me, yet it seems to be something you seek to increase. Should you feel shame for that?

What if I spin it to be an emotional argument? 1213 wants babies to be raised by mothers that don't want them! As you can see, these types of emotional arguments are not accurate for not addressing reality. You don't want such a thing, yet what you champion would have this result.

I can believe their parents and society wants them dead,

Yet you seem to ignore this fact and make emotional arguments. Again, I'm with you, I don't like the idea of an abortion, but we are dealing with unwant and that has repercussions that your emotional arguments (baby killing) seem to ignore.

but maybe what matters most is, do the children want to be dead.

Since it is impossible to ask a fetus if it wants to live, your statement is meaningless. Stop pretending that abortion is where we murder babies or children! It's the removal of an unwanted fetus. You make it emotional rather than dealing with this fact.
You don't remember before you were born, so stop pretending that a fetus would have feelings on the matter.

I think abortion is ok only if those who want abortion are aborted.

Has there ever been a person on this planet that has wanted an abortion? There have been millions that have determined that they don't want to attempt to carry a fetus to term and abortions are the method. How would we abort a person that wanted to have an abortion anyways? You're not making sense here.

Please answer this: What is the desired amount of unwanted babies that the earth should seek to have each year? Is 40 - 50 million unwanted babies enough, or should we strive for more? Would the world be a better place if we had 1 billion unwanted babies per year? Again, try to reason with these questions and leave your emotions out if you can.

[The Tanager]

Seems to me, if one is into the 'sanctity of life', that means all (human at least) life, no matter what the person did or didn't do. Adding the caveat of 'well, life is so amazing that if you take it we will take yours = justice' is, to me, nonsensical.
But to each their own.

But what if one is weighing that life versus potential future lives lost?

[Tcg]

Seems to me, if one is into the 'sanctity of life', that means all (human at least) life, no matter what the person did or didn't do. Adding the caveat of 'well, life is so amazing that if you take it we will take yours = justice' is, to me, nonsensical.
But to each their own.

But what if one is weighing that life versus potential future lives lost?

That's a good point. It'd be easy to suggest that a lifelong prison sentence would be the solution except for the fact that murders occur in prison too.


Tcg

[brunumb]

If the unwanted babies would be allowed to live, how many of them would say that they don't want to live, they rather die? I can believe their parents and society wants them dead, but maybe what matters most is, do the children want to be dead.

Does God take that into consideration when he aborts wanted babies through miscarriages and other failures of pregnancies to reach term?

[1213]

If the unwanted babies would be allowed to live, how many of them would say that they don't want to live, they rather die? I can believe their parents and society wants them dead, but maybe what matters most is, do the children want to be dead.

Does God take that into consideration when he aborts wanted babies through miscarriages and other failures of pregnancies to reach term?

If God ends someones life, I believe He has taken everything into consideration.

[brunumb]

If the unwanted babies would be allowed to live, how many of them would say that they don't want to live, they rather die? I can believe their parents and society wants them dead, but maybe what matters most is, do the children want to be dead.

Does God take that into consideration when he aborts wanted babies through miscarriages and other failures of pregnancies to reach term?

If God ends someones life, I believe He has taken everything into consideration.

What do you think he has taken into consideration when a desperate couple awaiting the birth of their child find that God has decided to kill it instead of allowing it to be born?

[nobspeople]

Seems to me, if one is into the 'sanctity of life', that means all (human at least) life, no matter what the person did or didn't do. Adding the caveat of 'well, life is so amazing that if you take it we will take yours = justice' is, to me, nonsensical.
But to each their own.

But what if one is weighing that life versus potential future lives lost?

First, I think this is the first time (aka making history) that your response is this simple and concise. Thank you for that!
Hallelu!
To the point:
I don't believe, in a case such as this, you can weigh a real, current life against 'potential' future lives. That, to me, is making an excuse for vengeance:
'No abortions - I'm pro-life - but it's OK to take a life of someone due to potential loss of life' as opposed to 'No abortions - I'm pro-life - but it's not OK to take a life of someone due to potential loss of life so prison for them would suffice'

But as I said. to each their own. It's not 'against the law' to be a hypocrite. Just.... distasteful...?