Rather or not it's correct to be taught, inherited sin (my term, describing how humanity all have sin based on the failure of Adam and Eve) is taught in various sects' churches in christianity.
For discussion:
For those that believe in inherited sin, how is this justified?
How does this make sense?
How is this fair?
Or is nothing 'fair' in light of the almighty's righteousness and glory?
Inherited sin
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #61Let's hold that thought for a minute.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:15 amNo offense but I am really not interested in discussing your feelings or beliefs; thanks for sharing but neither are debatable.David Davidovich wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:18 am ... I don't believe that I am sinning or that I fall short of Bible God's perfection because of it.
I don't disagree that it does.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:15 am What I was highlighting is that the biblical lexicon parallels with common perception of what it means to be "imperfect".
Well, getting back to your comment that I said to hold that thought for a minute, it goes both ways: I myself am really not interested in discussing your feelings or beliefs. Because what you're really attempting to do is to make an inference that while nonbelievers observe that there's something flawed with the human condition, the bible itself gives the true explanation as to how "nobody's perfect" came about. Or do you disagree with that?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:15 am However one calls it, we are talking about the inability to avoid all that is harmful, ...."undesirable, unkind, [and] unhealthy".
Both atheist and believer recognise that nobody's perfect. We call it "sinful" you call it "flawed" but the two are in essence interchangable, since they are both describing "the human condition". He that does not believe in sin still has to believe in the human condition. Wasn't it Shakespeare said .... "Pick a name, any name"?If I call an apple "an Eve Fruit" and you call it "a granny smith" it makes no difference if you dont believe in Eve and I dont believe in granny Smith we are both referring to the same thing
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #62Good well if I ever invite you too, feel free to remind me of that.David Davidovich wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:22 pm
Well, getting back to your comment that I said to hold that thought for a minute, it goes both ways: I myself am really not interested in discussing your feelings or beliefs.
Emphasis MINEDavid Davidovich wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:22 pm ... you're really attempting to do is to make an inference that while nonbelievers observe that there's something flawed with the human condition, the bible itself gives the true explanation as to how "nobody's perfect" came about. Or do you disagree with that?
I never said it was the true explanation and never will say that in this subforum.
What I actually said (which is simply a fact) was ...[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:39 am The bible simply offers an explanation of how "nobody's perfect" came about.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #63Peace again to you all,
The only sin that is inherited is sin in the flesh. Sins that we commit ourselves (and unless you know of someone who has never erred, lied, committed wrongdoing, wronged another person, passed by someone in need without giving, acted against love, etc) well, sins we commit ourselves are our own. Some of these might still be sins of the flesh (someone hungry or sick or hurt is likely going to lash out in pain at someone else).... if you recall, at one point Paul refers to the fact that he does things he does not want to do, that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit. People can also lose their tempers and lash out as well... that person often feels remorse for having lost control and done so, and hopefully that person can be forgiven by the person they lashed out at, same as we want our own sins (errors/wrongdoing) to be forgiven. In fact, the justice is in that "by the measure we use, it will be used against us." If we judge, we will be judged in the same way that we judged others. If we forgive, we too will be forgiven.
We all 'mess up'. But we learn (hopefully) to do better, to act from love, to work on our weaknesses, to be more careful, to treat others with kindness, love, mercy, forgiveness. If we see and learn where we fail (or - especially if one is Christian - if Christ reveals it to us), we can know what we have to work on, watch out for.
I understand the adverse and sometimes extreme reaction some people have against the word, sin, because of the way that religion has abused people with it, judging them and using it in a judgmental way, threatening them, using it to keep them down and afraid... though these same religious teachers don't seem to understand (or care) that the second most important commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. You cannot love your neighbor as yourself unless you first love yourself.
And that - love - is the law. That is the law from God, from the beginning, against which there is no law.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
The only sin that is inherited is sin in the flesh. Sins that we commit ourselves (and unless you know of someone who has never erred, lied, committed wrongdoing, wronged another person, passed by someone in need without giving, acted against love, etc) well, sins we commit ourselves are our own. Some of these might still be sins of the flesh (someone hungry or sick or hurt is likely going to lash out in pain at someone else).... if you recall, at one point Paul refers to the fact that he does things he does not want to do, that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit. People can also lose their tempers and lash out as well... that person often feels remorse for having lost control and done so, and hopefully that person can be forgiven by the person they lashed out at, same as we want our own sins (errors/wrongdoing) to be forgiven. In fact, the justice is in that "by the measure we use, it will be used against us." If we judge, we will be judged in the same way that we judged others. If we forgive, we too will be forgiven.
We all 'mess up'. But we learn (hopefully) to do better, to act from love, to work on our weaknesses, to be more careful, to treat others with kindness, love, mercy, forgiveness. If we see and learn where we fail (or - especially if one is Christian - if Christ reveals it to us), we can know what we have to work on, watch out for.
I understand the adverse and sometimes extreme reaction some people have against the word, sin, because of the way that religion has abused people with it, judging them and using it in a judgmental way, threatening them, using it to keep them down and afraid... though these same religious teachers don't seem to understand (or care) that the second most important commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. You cannot love your neighbor as yourself unless you first love yourself.
And that - love - is the law. That is the law from God, from the beginning, against which there is no law.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #64My apologies. After clicking on the guidelines link and seeing where it said, "We are debating Christianity, pro and con, for and against, not debating with the assumption that Christianity is true," this is something new to me that pro and con doesn't equate to whether or not something is true. Also, knowing how Jehovah's Witnesses are, they are usually very headstrong and very dogmatic in the beliefs, and that is what I'm used to from them. But once again, my apologies.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:49 pmGood well if I ever invite you too, feel free to remind me of that.David Davidovich wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:22 pm
Well, getting back to your comment that I said to hold that thought for a minute, it goes both ways: I myself am really not interested in discussing your feelings or beliefs.
Emphasis MINEDavid Davidovich wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:22 pm ... you're really attempting to do is to make an inference that while nonbelievers observe that there's something flawed with the human condition, the bible itself gives the true explanation as to how "nobody's perfect" came about. Or do you disagree with that?
I never said it was the true explanation and never will say that in this subforum.
What I actually said (which is simply a fact) was ...[ * ] I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:39 am The bible simply offers an explanation of how "nobody's perfect" came about.
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #65Thank you. Now we know exactly what consideration to give to anything you post here.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:15 am No offense but I am really not interested in discussing your feelings or beliefs; thanks for sharing but neither are debatable.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #66Exactly, brunumb. He's only interested in discussing his own feelings or beliefs.brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:06 pmThank you. Now we know exactly what consideration to give to anything you post here.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:15 am No offense but I am really not interested in discussing your feelings or beliefs; thanks for sharing but neither are debatable.
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #67The original sin
The only original sin is disobeying God and trying to cover it. Christians willfully commit the original sin.
They are only fooling themselves. By saying their disobedience is inherited they have an excuse for their actions.
If I offered a Christian a million dollars to not commit any sins for one day could they do it? Sure they could. Wait...I thought they were incapable of being sinless?
Sure they can. So then why don't they? Because they don't want to
The only original sin is disobeying God and trying to cover it. Christians willfully commit the original sin.
They are only fooling themselves. By saying their disobedience is inherited they have an excuse for their actions.
If I offered a Christian a million dollars to not commit any sins for one day could they do it? Sure they could. Wait...I thought they were incapable of being sinless?
Sure they can. So then why don't they? Because they don't want to
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #68FIRSTLY PLEASE NOTE I make no claims here, I am simply presenting the biblical view of things ...."
Hebrew Scripture tell us
ECCLESIASTES 7:20
For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.
So according to Jewish tradition this is true of everyone Jews included.PSALM 51:5 - NWT
Look! I was born guilty of error, Ad my mother conceived me in sin..[/b]
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Inherited sin
Post #69A family member of mine is a retired (southern?) baptist minister. His belief is 'once forgiven, always forgiven'. Which seems like a wonderful concept: ask for forgiveness and then, do what you want and you're in the clear!
Maybe that's how he excused the physical and emotional abuse his wife and son suffered?
Ah... ministers, preachers, priests... the pillars of the christian community that can be relied upon for honesty, safety, protection and guidance. Ironic.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!