Could you be sinless for 24 hours for $1,000,000?

[Avoice]

If I offered to give you a $1,000,000 could you be sinless for 24 hours?

Could you do it?

If not, what sin/s would you commit that would cause you to lose a million dollars?
And why would you not be able to control it?

[JehovahsWitness]

... conceived in sin so I'm sinful?

Biblically that's about it yes.

That's a very, very sad train of thought...

There's no denying ... it is sad but so is cancer. Something (and this isnt a claim, its a general principle) .... something (whatever that might be) doesn't stop being true because it's sad and unfair. If that is our condition , that is our condition; not facing that which is sad doesn't make that thing go away. If anything it might makes things worse.



JW

[Tcg]

... conceived in sin so I'm sinful?

Biblically that's about it yes.

That's a very, very sad train of thought...

There's no denying ... it is sad but so is cancer. Something doesn't stop being true because it's sad and unfair. If that is our condition , that is our condition; not facing that which is sad doesn't make that thing go away. If anything it makes things worse.

Yep. It's like ignoring the reality (my opinion not a claim of fact) that death is final. The fact that facing the finality of death is sad, doesn't mean that death isn't final. Of course, there are numerous religious traditions that help one deny this reality if that is one's goal. It is not terribly important which one is selected, they all serve the same function.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

Sad or not sad isn't the point but believable or not is the point. There is a lot about the human condition that we would prefer wasn't so, but the correct thing to do is try to understand it and improve it, not to say 'JesusGod will sort it all out". That's the reason I reject the concept of Sin - not because it's sad - as a reflection of the limits of humanity it may be sad but unavoidable, but what is sadder and is avoidable is the religious claptrap wrapped around it and which solves nothing other than the cashflow - worries of the religious leaders.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #11]

Biblically that's about it yes.

Rationally speaking, that makes no sense UNLESS one's attempt is to encompass all peoples. Which makes sense coming from a limited human brain's ability; no so much when it comes from a supreme being that's capable of creating everything that is IMO.

There's no denying ... it is sad but so is cancer. Something (and this isnt a claim, its a general principle) .... something (whatever that might be) doesn't stop being true because it's sad and unfair.

This is true. But because something's written in a book doesn't mean it's true.

If that is our condition , that is our condition; not facing that which is sad doesn't make that thing go away. If anything it might makes things worse.

IF is a big word. IF requires belief, not facts. IF (pun intended) one wants to believer in that, that's their choice as far as I'm concerned.
The issue is when these believers try to pass if off as fact to others (said in general, of course).

[JehovahsWitness]

There's no denying ... it is sad but so is cancer. Something (and this isnt a claim, its a general principle) .... something (whatever that might be) doesn't stop being true because it's sad and unfair.

This is true. But because something's written in a book doesn't mean it's true.

Agree. So a response, that somethjng would be sad/tragic/unfair/I don't like the sound of that, it hurts my "feelings".. is effectively no counterargument as to whether that thing is true or not, unless feelings are counterargument (which they are not).

The issue is when these believers try to pass if off as fact to others (said in general, of course).

Most believers I have met simply communicate what they believe to be fact and invite others to investigate. At least that is the case for Jehovahs Witnesses that I know.



JW

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

So a response, that somethjng would be sad/tragic/unfair/I don't like the sound of that, it hurts my "feelings".. is effectively no counterargument as to whether that thing is true or not, unless feelings are counterargument (which they are not)

Correct. Just as 'because it's written in a book' doesn't make it true or false. Or 'because it's in the bible'. Or 'because god said'. Or 'because I believe'. Or 'because I feel'.
I don't recall seeing anyone in this thread say 'I don't like XYZ so it is (or isn't) true (though I may have missed it TBH). Maybe illogical, unfair, stupid, brilliant...tasty...

Most believers I have met simply communicate what they believe to be fact and invite others to investigate. At least that is the case for Jehovahs Witnesses that I know.

Which is why I ended my statement with "said in general, of course.", as I wasn't accusing anyone here directly at this time
Surely there are some that simply 'don't want to hear it' and get offended. It is their right/prerogative to get offended at whatever they want, see, think, believe...the color blue... whatever. It's simply that, nothing more, normally.

[Purple Knight]

If I offered to give you a $1,000,000 could you be sinless for 24 hours?

Could you do it?

If not, what sin/s would you commit that would cause you to lose a million dollars?
And why would you not be able to control it?

Obviously not, because sin is internal. I could avoid doing a particular thing or a combination of things with varying degrees of success, with "don't breathe" being on the far end of that where I would expect an automatic failure no matter how hard I tried.

Now, I could externally stop myself from breathing by slashing my windpipe one minute before the challenge starts. But given that I have the courage to do that, I am still sitting there when the challenge starts, trying to breathe, so according to Christianity I lose, because what is in your mind is a sin. I'm trying to breathe, I want to breathe, so I am coveting air, greedy for it, and therefore sinful whether I actually get it and indulge in it or not. Just wanting a sinful thing is sinful.

[Purple Knight]

... conceived in sin so I'm sinful?

Biblically that's about it yes.

I applaud you for admitting this and for admitting that the way the universe is structured is fundamentally unfair. Denying reality about this unfairness does indeed lead to more unfairness. Imagine being born with a twisted spine, legally blind, two club feet, acondroplasic dwarfism, and your parents are constantly struggling to understand why you're not an Olympic gymnast and concluding that you must be lazy.

[JehovahsWitness]

... conceived in sin so I'm sinful?

Biblically that's about it yes.

I applaud you for admitting this and for admitting that the way the universe is structured is fundamentally unfair. Denying reality about this unfairness does indeed lead to more unfairness. Imagine being born with a twisted spine, legally blind, two club feet, acondroplasic dwarfism, and your parents are constantly struggling to understand why you're not an Olympic gymnast and concluding that you must be lazy.

I agree, not facing reality can cause harm, especially if it results in falling to take measures that could improve ones situation. That said I dont believe people are sinful /imperfect because of "the universe" or that "the way the universe structured is fundamentally unfair" . The world (as in the world system) is, in my opinion obscenely unfair, but life was not (and this is not a claim but a statement of faith) conceived as such, nor will it always be.

[Purple Knight]

I agree, not facing reality can cause harm, especially if it results in falling to take measures that could improve ones situation. That said I dont believe people are sinful /imperfect because of "the universe" or that "the way the universe structured is fundamentally unfair" . The world (as in the world system) is, in my opinion obscenely unfair, but life was not (and this is not a claim but a statement of faith) conceived as such, nor will it always be.

But when it comes to the way sin works, isn't that more of a universe-was-written-that-way issue? At very least the universe wasn't written with individuality in mind as a moral principle. The fabric of the universe, in the Biblical worldview, allows someone to suffer not just physically but morally, as in, being at fault for, being accountable for, something that they did not do.

Now full disclosure I don't think rugged individuality covers everything; it can't. And you can press this by asking if someone hiring a hit man (pro bono if they say money is the issue) is merely engaging in free speech or if he is doing something morally wrong. You will see that people don't actually believe in the degree of individualism they profess to. The difference between them and myself is that I think about it and then don't profess to it when I travel down that road and arrive at absurdity. And you can thusly see how being a genius is actually a disadvantage because I only suffer for this and would be in every way better off if I just didn't think about it.

But that's in this universe, the way it was written. I can understand having a universe written so that people can physically or emotionally suffer for the sins of others, since if you couldn't hurt others there would be no evil, and therefore no opportunity to choose good. What's less clear is why the universe would be written by a fair God to include unfairness on a basic level, allowing the actions of one to pollute the very morality of another who has no choice in the matter.