Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

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Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #1

Post by Avoice »

Your belief and truth of Christianity is said by the NT writers to be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet when you defend your faith you turn to King James or the Septugiant to support the claims if the NT.

The NT writers KNEW the Hebrew Scriptures was the highest authority by which all claims must be tested.

The NT writers convinced billions of people by claiming it's doctrine is supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet when it comes to showing that proof you won't go to the Hebrew. You use a translation. And have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority. The truth you claim to have you say is upheld by highest authority - Hebrew Scriptures. But when you have to prove it you cheat

Aren't you angry at the NT writers making you have to cheat in order to make their claims appear valid? Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? That even right now you will be forced into giving a torcherous explaination even though no explaination you could give will ever give anything other than the Hebrew the authority to determine the truth.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #11

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #8]

Only the first five books of Moses did the group of rabbis translate.

When it comes to the Hebrew Scriptures giving the authority to the septugiant as the guide by which truth is determined is wrong. Why drink water down stream. Granted that's all many have tasted and they are used to it. They may not like to go to the oldest known manuscripts. If they really want the truth they will

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #12

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I'm inclined to agree. Although I was misled for a while, I now consider the Masoretic text as more accurate and the Septuagint as less correct. In fact there are suggestions that the Septuagint is closer to the Samaritan version (Targum).
However, this means that the Gospels quote the Greek text not the Hebrew one, and that tells us something about who wrote it. Wouldn't you say?

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #13

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

I believe you said something like none of the errors effect your faith. What is your faith based on? What convinces you to believe in Jesus? Something has you convinced. What is it? Tell me


Well...
Where to start????

I will start on page one of the Christian Testament:
The pillar of Christianity is the virgin birth. The writer of Mathew (whoever that was no one knows) claims that the 7th chapter of Isaiah foretells the birth of the messiah. NO, IT S NOT

The book of Mathew claims Jesus fulfilled prophecy when he, Mary and Joseph returned from Egypt and quoted the passage "Out of Egypt I called my son". NO, HE DID NOT. Look it up. It is about the exodus from Egypt during the days of Pharaoh.

The book of Mathew claims the killing of the children by Herod was foretold then quotes the passage about "Rachel weeping for her children". NO IT IS NOT. Look it up. It is about the Babylonian exile.

The claim that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem is FALSE. It is not that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem but rather he comes from the one born in Bethlehem - King David

I could give more from the book of Mathew but I'm already exhausted.

How about Isaiah 53. The suffering servant. Isaiah doesn't name the servant in this chapter. But if you read the chapters that preceded it we learn it is Israel. Israel is the servant. Yes, spoken of in the singular even. "You are my WITNESSES and my SERVANT whom I gave chosen".

NOTE: The church altered Isaiah 53. It DOES NOT
say: for the TRANSGRESSIONS of my people HE was stricken. It says: "THEY were stricken"
THEY ... PLURAL. The church changed it to make it sound like one person - Jesus. But it is THEY ...plural. Israel.

Also God tells us who his son is:
"Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"

There is much more. But I am tired

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #14

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #7]
Only the five books of Moses were translated by that group of rabbis. Not the entire Hebrew Scriptures

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #15

Post by 1213 »

Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pm I believe you said something like none of the errors effect your faith.
I don’t believe I have said that.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmWhat is your faith based on? What convinces you to believe in Jesus? Something has you convinced. What is it?
The reason why I believe in Jesus is the Bible. And I want to be loyal (faithful) to Jesus and God because I think they are good, their teachings are good.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe pillar of Christianity is the virgin birth. The writer of Mathew (whoever that was no one knows) claims that the 7th chapter of Isaiah foretells the birth of the messiah. NO, IT S NOT
To me the pillar of Christianity is the teachings of Jesus, not virgin birth. If Isaiah is not telling about birth of Messiah, what is he telling? And why it seems people in Jesus’s time thought it was about Messiah? Could it be that they had better understanding than you about it?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe book of Mathew claims Jesus fulfilled prophecy when he, Mary and Joseph returned from Egypt and quoted the passage "Out of Egypt I called my son". NO, HE DID NOT. Look it up. It is about the exodus from Egypt during the days of Pharaoh.
I don’t remember well that scripture in Old Testament. Can you give the scripture so that I could check is your claim reasonable?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe book of Mathew claims the killing of the children by Herod was foretold then quotes the passage about "Rachel weeping for her children". NO IT IS NOT. Look it up. It is about the Babylonian exile.
Why do you think the people thought it is about what Herod did?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe claim that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem is FALSE. It is not that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem but rather he comes from the one born in Bethlehem - King David
Please show the scripture that tells it?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmHow about Isaiah 53. The suffering servant. Isaiah doesn't name the servant in this chapter. But if you read the chapters that preceded it we learn it is Israel. Israel is the servant. Yes, spoken of in the singular even. "You are my WITNESSES and my SERVANT whom I gave chosen".
Sorry, I don’t think it fits to Israel nation, nor Jacob, who is also called Israel.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pm Also God tells us who his son is:
"Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"
Please tell, where is that said in the Bible? Usually, Israel the nation is daughter, so is that about Jacob? By what the Bible tells, God has many sons. So, what is the point of this?

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #16

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

What scriptural evidence convinces you Jesus is the messiah? I can't answer your question unless I know what it is that convinces you

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #17

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

What scriptural evidence convinces you Jesus is the messiah? I can't answer your question unless I know what it is that convinces you
1213 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:35 am
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pm I believe you said something like none of the errors effect your faith.
I don’t believe I have said that.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmWhat is your faith based on? What convinces you to believe in Jesus? Something has you convinced. What is it?
The reason why I believe in Jesus is the Bible. And I want to be loyal (faithful) to Jesus and God because I think they are good, their teachings are good.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe pillar of Christianity is the virgin birth. The writer of Mathew (whoever that was no one knows) claims that the 7th chapter of Isaiah foretells the birth of the messiah. NO, IT S NOT
To me the pillar of Christianity is on the teachings of Jesus, not virgin birth. If Isaiah is not telling about birth of Messiah, what is he telling? And why it seems people in Jesus’s time thought it was about Messiah? Could it be that they had better understanding than you about it?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe book of Mathew claims Jesus fulfilled prophecy when he, Mary and Joseph returned from Egypt and quoted the passage "Out of Egypt I called my son". NO, HE DID NOT. Look it up. It is about the exodus from Egypt during the days of Pharaoh.
I don’t remember well that scripture in Old Testament. Can you give the scripture so that I could check is your claim reasonable?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe book of Mathew claims the killing of the children by Herod was foretold then quotes the passage about "Rachel weeping for her children". NO IT IS NOT. Look it up. It is about the Babylonian exile.
Why do you think the people thought it is about what Herod did?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe claim that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem is FALSE. It is not that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem but rather he comes from the one born in Bethlehem - King David
Please show the scripture that tells it?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmHow about Isaiah 53. The suffering servant. Isaiah doesn't name the servant in this chapter. But if you read the chapters that preceded it we learn it is Israel. Israel is the servant. Yes, spoken of in the singular even. "You are my WITNESSES and my SERVANT whom I gave chosen".
Sorry, I don’t think it fits to Israel nation, nor Jacob, who is also called Israel.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pm Also God tells us who his son is:
"Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"
Please tell, where is that said in the Bible? Usually, Israel the nation is daughter, so is that about Jacob? By what the Bible tells, God has many sons. So, what is the point of this?
1213 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:35 am
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pm I believe you said something like none of the errors effect your faith.
I don’t believe I have said that.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmWhat is your faith based on? What convinces you to believe in Jesus? Something has you convinced. What is it?
The reason why I believe in Jesus is the Bible. And I want to be loyal (faithful) to Jesus and God because I think they are good, their teachings are good.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe pillar of Christianity is the virgin birth. The writer of Mathew (whoever that was no one knows) claims that the 7th chapter of Isaiah foretells the birth of the messiah. NO, IT S NOT
To me the pillar of Christianity is the teachings of Jesus, not virgin birth. If Isaiah is not telling about birth of Messiah, what is he telling? And why it seems people in Jesus’s time thought it was about Messiah? Could it be that they had better understanding than you about it?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe book of Mathew claims Jesus fulfilled prophecy when he, Mary and Joseph returned from Egypt and quoted the passage "Out of Egypt I called my son". NO, HE DID NOT. Look it up. It is about the exodus from Egypt during the days of Pharaoh.
I don’t remember well that scripture in Old Testament. Can you give the scripture so that I could check is your claim reasonable?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe book of Mathew claims the killing of the children by Herod was foretold then quotes the passage about "Rachel weeping for her children". NO IT IS NOT. Look it up. It is about the Babylonian exile.
Why do you think the people thought it is about what Herod did?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmThe claim that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem is FALSE. It is not that the messiah will be born in Bethlehem but rather he comes from the one born in Bethlehem - King David
Please show the scripture that tells it?
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pmHow about Isaiah 53. The suffering servant. Isaiah doesn't name the servant in this chapter. But if you read the chapters that preceded it we learn it is Israel. Israel is the servant. Yes, spoken of in the singular even. "You are my WITNESSES and my SERVANT whom I gave chosen".
Sorry, I don’t think it fits to Israel nation, nor Jacob, who is also called Israel.
Avoice wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:28 pm Also God tells us who his son is:
"Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn"
Please tell, where is that said in the Bible? Usually, Israel the nation is daughter, so is that about Jacob? By what the Bible tells, God has many sons. So, what is the point of this?
There was no "reply" button. The only switch available was something that looked like a quotation mark. That leads me here. You can look these things up for yourself. All annotated bibles show the cross references.
You ask me where it says "Thus saith the lord, Israel is my son, even my first born". Just type those words into Google search. It'll tell you.

And as for you saying Israel is not the servant...go read Isaiah. Sure chapter 53 doesn't say who the servant is. But Isaiah expects you read the chapter leading up to 53. And when you do he tells you the servant is Israel.
Why do i think people believe it was about Herod ? Because they don't bother checking the claims made in the book of Mathew. Use yourself for an example....you are asking where these passage are that show Mathew isn't being honest. You should have checked all his supposed claims. You aren't alone. Christians just read it and believe it. An anotated Christian bible even gives the Old TESTAMENT passage that SUPPOSEDLY support church claims. They don't. Go read them. You probably won't. That is why the church is so successful...no one checks.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #18

Post by otseng »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:16 amGo read them. You probably won't.
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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #19

Post by 1213 »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:16 am ...
And as for you saying Israel is not the servant...go read Isaiah. Sure chapter 53 doesn't say who the servant is. But Isaiah expects you read the chapter leading up to 53. And when you do he tells you the servant is Israel.
...
Sorry, I don't think it is about nation Israel, because nations are usually females.
Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:16 am...An anotated Christian bible even gives the Old TESTAMENT passage that SUPPOSEDLY support church claims. They don't. Go read them. You probably won't. That is why the church is so successful...no one checks.
I agree that people should check everything.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #20

Post by 1213 »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:56 am [Replying to 1213 in post #3]

What scriptural evidence convinces you Jesus is the messiah? I can't answer your question unless I know what it is that convinces you
The reason for me to think Jesus is the Messiah is that the people that were with Jesus thought he was the Messiah. I believe they had good reason to think so.

But, I also know that for example the translation of Old Testament that I use normally doesn't even have the word "Messiah" in it. I don't think there is direct words in modern Old Testament that says, Messiah will come in future and be like... ...there are only indirect references that some people think fits to Jesus. Some think they don't fit, which is why all ancient prophesies are problematic, because person can always interpret it to mean something else by what he desires to be truth.

This is why for me the greatest reason for me to believe Jesus is the Messiah is the teachings of Jesus. For me they are enough reason to keep him the Messiah, the king of kings and high priest as the Bible tells.

But, I think this is very interesting topic, because if we go by what modern Jews say about Messiah, I think there is not much to say. Modern Old Testament doesn't really say much about it directly. New Testament clearly tells that people waited Messiah, like for example said in this:

The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah comes,” (he who is called Christ). “When he has come, he will declare to us all things.”
Joh. 4:25

But, I don't think we have a scripture that says that same and that makes one wonder where did that person get the idea. Maybe the scriptures have been destroyed, or too well hidden. Many scriptures that are interpreted to be about Messiah are actually about God, or David (David can be called also Messiah, because he was anointed to be the king of Jews). And actually Bible tells that at some point David will return.

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without sacred stone, and without ephod or idols. Afterward the children of Israel shall return, and seek Yahweh their God, and David their king, and shall come with trembling to Yahweh and to his blessings in the last days.
Hosea 3:4-5

My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them. They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever: and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.
Eze. 37:24-25

So, it looks like David is the Messiah Jews are waiting. But, then you may ask, who is Jesus then? And I think this riddle can be solved by first looking what David says in his psalm.

Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.” Yahweh will send forth the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies. Your people offer themselves willingly in the day of your power, in holy array. Out of the womb of the morning, you have the dew of your youth. Yahweh has sworn, and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
Ps. 110:1-4

I believe Jesus is the one who sits at the right hand of God and is that lord of David. And as you may know, Melchizedek was a king and also high priest, as Bible tells Jesus is also. And I think that is also why Jesus tells this about his kingdom.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn’t be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here.” Pilate therefore said to him, “Are you a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
Joh. 18:36-37

At this point it is good to notice that priests were also anointed ones. (And anointed means messiah). And i think Jesus fits well to that idea of King and High priest in the order of Melchizedek.

But, I understand this is not enough for all, and for me it is ok. I don't have any need to force people to believe what I believe. However, I would like to know, who is the son of God in this:

Why do the nations rage, And the peoples plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth take a stand, And the rulers take counsel together, Against Yahweh, and against his anointed, [The word “anointed” is the same as the word for “Messiah” or “Christ”] saying, “Let’s break their bonds apart, And cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens will laugh. The Lord will have them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his anger, And terrify them in his wrath: “Yet I have set my king on my holy hill of Zion.” I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, “You are my son. Today I have become your father. Ask of me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, The uttermost parts of the earth for your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron. You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” Now therefore be wise, you kings. Be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve Yahweh with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, For his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in him. A Psalm by David, when he fled from Absalom his son.
Ps. 2:1-12

I think that and also Isa. 53:1-12 are about Jesus.

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