Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Argue for and against Christianity

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Avoice
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Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #1

Post by Avoice »

Your belief and truth of Christianity is said by the NT writers to be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet when you defend your faith you turn to King James or the Septugiant to support the claims if the NT.

The NT writers KNEW the Hebrew Scriptures was the highest authority by which all claims must be tested.

The NT writers convinced billions of people by claiming it's doctrine is supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet when it comes to showing that proof you won't go to the Hebrew. You use a translation. And have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority. The truth you claim to have you say is upheld by highest authority - Hebrew Scriptures. But when you have to prove it you cheat

Aren't you angry at the NT writers making you have to cheat in order to make their claims appear valid? Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? That even right now you will be forced into giving a torcherous explaination even though no explaination you could give will ever give anything other than the Hebrew the authority to determine the truth.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 am Your belief and truth of Christianity is said by the NT writers to be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet when you defend your faith you turn to King James or the Septugiant to support the claims if the NT.

The NT writers KNEW the Hebrew Scriptures was the highest authority by which all claims must be tested.

The NT writers convinced billions of people by claiming it's doctrine is supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet when it comes to showing that proof you won't go to the Hebrew. You use a translation. And have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority. The truth you claim to have you say is upheld by highest authority - Hebrew Scriptures. But when you have to prove it you cheat

Aren't you angry at the NT writers making you have to cheat in order to make their claims appear valid? Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? That even right now you will be forced into giving a torcherous explaination even though no explaination you could give will ever give anything other than the Hebrew the authority to determine the truth.
No they ain't. Their beliefs are solid (for the most part) and take years - decades - to change even one iota. Look around and see how many of them don't seem to know the different between the words 'know' and 'believe'!

They are content on their 'knowledge' that they are right and everyone else is wrong and hell bound (though some get giddy when they think others are going to hell based on my experience).

No they're not angry.
Or embarrassed.

They're 'blessed'.
And right. :dance: :roll:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #3

Post by 1213 »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 am ... Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? ...
Please show one example how the Hebrew scriptures would make "my truth" to fail?

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #4

Post by Difflugia »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 amAnd have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority.
Outside of the Greek Orthodox Church, nobody actually argues that. I assume that you're referring to the Isaiah 7 "virgin" birth prophecy. The Hebrew is ambiguous enough to admit of either the modern Jewish reading or Matthew's understanding of it. That he took his reading from the Septuagint is of no matter. Christian doctrine is that Matthew was inspired, so the Hebrew Scriptures as God inspired Matthew to understand them are authoritative, not the Septuagint.

You're not only arguing a straw man, but one that has repeatedly been explained to you. There are far better Jewish arguments against Christianity, so I don't know why you insist on using one that you know is fallacious.
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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #5

Post by Athetotheist »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:28 pm
Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 amAnd have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority.
Outside of the Greek Orthodox Church, nobody actually argues that. I assume that you're referring to the Isaiah 7 "virgin" birth prophecy. The Hebrew is ambiguous enough to admit of either the modern Jewish reading or Matthew's understanding of it. That he took his reading from the Septuagint is of no matter. Christian doctrine is that Matthew was inspired, so the Hebrew Scriptures as God inspired Matthew to understand them are authoritative, not the Septuagint.

You're not only arguing a straw man, but one that has repeatedly been explained to you. There are far better Jewish arguments against Christianity, so I don't know why you insist on using one that you know is fallacious.
If you read Isaiah 7:14 in context, there's no reasonable way to interpret it as prophesying a virgin birth.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #6

Post by Difflugia »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:51 amIf you read Isaiah 7:14 in context, there's no reasonable way to interpret it as prophesying a virgin birth.
The OP was an argument that the translation itself is flawed, or perhaps even dishonest and that's what I addressed.

Whether or not pesharim are valid prophetic interpretations is a different argument.
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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #7

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 am Your belief and truth of Christianity is said by the NT writers to be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet when you defend your faith you turn to King James or the Septugiant to support the claims if the NT.

The NT writers KNEW the Hebrew Scriptures was the highest authority by which all claims must be tested.

The NT writers convinced billions of people by claiming it's doctrine is supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet when it comes to showing that proof you won't go to the Hebrew. You use a translation. And have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority. The truth you claim to have you say is upheld by highest authority - Hebrew Scriptures. But when you have to prove it you cheat

Aren't you angry at the NT writers making you have to cheat in order to make their claims appear valid? Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? That even right now you will be forced into giving a torcherous explaination even though no explaination you could give will ever give anything other than the Hebrew the authority to determine the truth.
Many Jews used the Septuagint as their scripture not Hebrew though, doesn't that fact weaken your claim that only Hebrew is trustworthy? Don't overlook the fact too that the Septuagint was translated by Jewish scribes and some 250+ years before Christ.

The Septuagint also sets a precedent by allowing Greek phrases to be reverse translated to Hebrew, a huge help to NT scholars who want to understand what might have been the intent of some Greek phrase in the NT.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #8

Post by Athetotheist »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:30 am
Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 am Your belief and truth of Christianity is said by the NT writers to be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet when you defend your faith you turn to King James or the Septugiant to support the claims if the NT.

The NT writers KNEW the Hebrew Scriptures was the highest authority by which all claims must be tested.

The NT writers convinced billions of people by claiming it's doctrine is supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet when it comes to showing that proof you won't go to the Hebrew. You use a translation. And have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority. The truth you claim to have you say is upheld by highest authority - Hebrew Scriptures. But when you have to prove it you cheat

Aren't you angry at the NT writers making you have to cheat in order to make their claims appear valid? Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? That even right now you will be forced into giving a torcherous explaination even though no explaination you could give will ever give anything other than the Hebrew the authority to determine the truth.
Many Jews used the Septuagint as their scripture not Hebrew though, doesn't that fact weaken your claim that only Hebrew is trustworthy? Don't overlook the fact too that the Septuagint was translated by Jewish scribes and some 250+ years before Christ.

The Septuagint also sets a precedent by allowing Greek phrases to be reverse translated to Hebrew, a huge help to NT scholars who want to understand what might have been the intent of some Greek phrase in the NT.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #9

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Well yes, but that's only helpful in understanding what the NT misused. Notably the Septuagint -based misreading of 'virgin' as literal in Greek, misreading two donkeys when only one is meant and the mistranslation (so it seems) of'out of the mouths of babes and sucklings.

Which disagrees with the OT and then I was persuaded that the Qumran scrolls supported the NT, and thus the Septuagint was right and the Masoretic texts were wrong, but now it seems that the source I was directed to lied and the Qumran scrolls support the OT and the Septuagint is wrong and so is Matthew, meaning that Jesus have not misquoted 'babes and sucklings' and thus he could never have said it and Thus - as if we didn't already have the evidence - Matthew was a Greek, could not read Hebrew and did not understand the Tanach and was certainly not an eyewitness follower of Jesus.

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Re: Christians: aren't you embarrassed and angry?

Post #10

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:36 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:30 am
Avoice wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:44 am Your belief and truth of Christianity is said by the NT writers to be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yet when you defend your faith you turn to King James or the Septugiant to support the claims if the NT.

The NT writers KNEW the Hebrew Scriptures was the highest authority by which all claims must be tested.

The NT writers convinced billions of people by claiming it's doctrine is supported by the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet when it comes to showing that proof you won't go to the Hebrew. You use a translation. And have the audacity to say the Greek Septugiant is the authority. The truth you claim to have you say is upheld by highest authority - Hebrew Scriptures. But when you have to prove it you cheat

Aren't you angry at the NT writers making you have to cheat in order to make their claims appear valid? Aren't you embarrassed that your truth will fail if forced to be seen in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures? That even right now you will be forced into giving a torcherous explaination even though no explaination you could give will ever give anything other than the Hebrew the authority to determine the truth.
Many Jews used the Septuagint as their scripture not Hebrew though, doesn't that fact weaken your claim that only Hebrew is trustworthy? Don't overlook the fact too that the Septuagint was translated by Jewish scribes and some 250+ years before Christ.

The Septuagint also sets a precedent by allowing Greek phrases to be reverse translated to Hebrew, a huge help to NT scholars who want to understand what might have been the intent of some Greek phrase in the NT.

There's a point to add to the good Rabbi's argument that Isaiah was not well translated into Greek and that 'Parthenos' means the same as Almah (a young woman). From what I understand, Parthenos can also mean virgo intacta (as in Athene Parthenos) as well as a Young Woman (virginal or not) whereas Almah does not mean Virgin but 'Bethulah' does. So IF the Septuagint had been accurate and IF virvgin had been meant, The Hebrew would say Bethulah and not Almah.

This to me is a slam - dunk debunk of Matthew as a Hebrew or a follower of Jesus.

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