Easter Traditions?

[Tcg]

Are there any Easter Traditions that are related specifically to Jesus' resurrection? The Easter eggs hunts, bunnies and pastel-colored candies seem to be a celebration of spring. Certainly, sermons will be preached on Jesus' resurrection, but are there any Easter Traditions that Christians practice with their families that are focused on Jesus?


Tcg

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #148

All four gospels (including John's) narrate that during this last meal Jesus identified Judas as the betrayer by dipping bread into the communal dish and handing it to him(Judas).

This is just plain wrong. In Mark and Matthew, Jesus identifies the betrayer as the one who dips his own hand into the dish along with Jesus, and Luke merely has Jesus saying that the hand of the betrayer is on the table with his and leaves the apostles scratching their heads over who it is.

This led one commentator to note that the action of Jesus in the fourth gospel seems to be a reversal of the eucharistic narrative. In John he gives bread only to the disciple who is to betray him, further suggesting that the last supper is not being presented as the paschal meal it is in the other gospels.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #148

All four gospels (including John's) narrate that during this last meal Jesus identified Judas as the betrayer by dipping bread into the communal dish and handing it to him(Judas).

This is just plain wrong. In Mark and Matthew, Jesus identifies the betrayer as the one who dips his own hand into the dish along with Jesus, and Luke merely has Jesus saying that the hand of the betrayer is on the table with his and leaves the apostles scratching their heads over who it is.
...

Okay the point is that all four gospels report Jesus as dripping the morsel in the bowl to identify his betrayer; the context of the present discussion being if John's "evening meal" could correspond to the Sedar meal reported in the synoptics.

Since it is unlikely Jesus was asked and responded with the same question twice about this matter, it is reasonable to presume ( the other factors taken into consideration) all four were reporting the events of the same evening.



JW

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #152

the point is that all four gospels report Jesus as dripping the morsel in the bowl to identify his betrayer

Again, Luke says no such thing.

Since it is unlikely Jesus was asked and responded with the same feature, twice about this matter, it is reasonable to presume ( the other factors also taken in to consideration) all four were reporting the events of the same evening.

Not when you take into account that John says the following day was the day of preparation. And since he says so more than once with no qualifying clarification, it is "reasonable to presume" that he meant it was the day before the paschal meal.

[JehovahsWitness]

WAS JOHN' S "EVENING MEAL" HELD ON YHE OCCASION OF THE SEDAR EVENT OF THE SYNOPICTS?

Since John concentrates on the events just before and after Jesus instigates his own memorial, we have to look for clues as to whether his "evening meal" of CHAPTER 13 was indeed the occassion of the Sedar meal reported by the others.

• John's "evening meal" is reported as the last Jesus ate before he died; the other writers present Jesus last meal as a Sedar Passover meal given the common elements (See below) we have good reason to believe they are all talking about the same evening

• ALL four have Jesus claim his betrayer was eating with them during what they all reported to be the last night he was alive (Luke 22:21-23). With Matthew (26:23) and Mark (14:20) and John reporting he did so by means of dipping his bread in the communal bowl. Evidently if Jesus "revealing of the betrayer" happened on the occassion they were eating the Sedar meal then John's "evening meal" was indeed the (sedar) PASSOVER.

• John presents on the same occassion (the evening meal ) Jesus warning that Peter would deny Him (Jesus) three times. A warning also reported by the synoptics as having been given on the night they ate Sedar (Compare Mat 26:34, Mark 14:30 ; Like 22:34 and John 13:38)

• All four gospels (including John) have Jesus leave this "evening meal" to a garden location (John 18:1b) where he was eventually arrested.

CONCLUSION We have more than enough indicators from John's text that his "evening meal" was indeed the Passover SEDAR meal presented by the other three writers. ...

RELATED POSTS

Does JOHN 18:28 indicate at Jesus trial he had not yet eaten the sedar meal ?
viewtopic.php?p=1082304#p1082304

Was John's "evening meal" the (Sedar) PASSOVER meal of the Synoptics? [This post]
viewtopic.php?p=1082886#p1082886

[TRANSPONDER]

The synoptics say the first day was before the last supper.

Chapters and verses please.

( post #85)

John states that the day of preparation being the day of the trial before Pilate ...

Yes, preparation for the TEMPLE based festival not for the private home based SEDAR meal.

See post #74

John states ... the priests having to stay ritually clean to eat the Passover ...

Yes, stay clean for the first day'or the TEMPLE based festival of unleaven bread not for Sedar (which would have already been eaten)

See post #89

...[the] last supper could not be the Seder.

Can you explain why not without being entirely circular? ( post #148)

You are messing me about . Mark 14.12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

13 So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14 Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”

16 The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

17 When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18 While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me.”

It seems that you are arguing that John is referring to a temple festival with a Passover eaten after the 'family -based' Passover meal which is what the Synoptics are referring to. I have posted extracts from the Jewish Encylopaedia which don't appear to mention any such thing. Can you substantiate this claim of yours?

.. That [Seder] has to be after the crucifixion. That ... is the problem.

Huh? What are you talking about?! Where did you get this from?

You are still messing me about. I have made all this very clear. In fact you show that you do understand above. You know that Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover before the arrest and trial which is when the priests are staying ritually pure to as to eat the Passover. Which you claim is a Temple passover held later than the 'Family' Passover meal. Can you substantiate that claim?

P.s I had a bit of a rummage myself, though a nu,ber of sites won't allow one to browse without signing up. However Oxford Biblical studies writes;

By now it should be clear that the Torah contains two festivals that have, at least in later times, been joined—an evening Passover, characterized by an animal sacrifice, followed by a seven day Festival of Unleavened Bread, eventually characterized by what types of breads may or may not be eaten (unleavened versus leavened). Although there is no direct evidence, many hypothesize that Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were originally two distinct festivals, the first related to animal husbandry, the second to grain. Different groups in ancient Israel originally celebrated one or the other, and since they transpired at similar times, they were eventually joined together, and were eventually recognized as a single festival.

What I did not find was any suggestion that there was a family Passover meal on the 14th/15th and 'Temple' Passover meal eaten a day or so later. Unless you can show this to be so, you cannot make a case against my point that John does no see the Last Supper as the Passover Seder, but has placed that apparently on the Sabbath, no doubt to have Jesus sacrificed by analogy with the paschal lambs.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #148

All four gospels (including John's) narrate that during this last meal Jesus identified Judas as the betrayer by dipping bread into the communal dish and handing it to him(Judas).

This is just plain wrong. In Mark and Matthew, Jesus identifies the betrayer as the one who dips his own hand into the dish along with Jesus, and Luke merely has Jesus saying that the hand of the betrayer is on the table with his and leaves the apostles scratching their heads over who it is.
...

Okay the point is that all four gospels report Jesus as dripping the morsel in the bowl to identify his betrayer; the context of the present discussion being if John's "evening meal" could correspond to the Sedar meal reported in the synoptics.

Since it is unlikely Jesus was asked and responded with the same question twice about this matter, it is reasonable to presume ( the other factors taken into consideration) all four were reporting the events of the same evening.



JW

Nobody denies that John's last supper is represented as the same event as the Synoptic last supper. The point here seems to be that In Matthew Jesus obliquely identifies Judas as the betrayer. Mark and Luke don't. But John has Jesus identify Judas and even tells him to go and do what he has to do, with the silly idea that the disciples thought he was telling Judas to go and buy food.

[JehovahsWitness]

You are messing me about . Mark 14.12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

Yes, " the first day" here refers to the Passover season whichnstarted with the Family based home (Sedar) meal and continued on to'the TEMPLE BASED festival of unleaven bread. For further details see my post : When was "the first day of the Passover festival"?
viewtopic.php?p=1082286#p1082286

..You know that Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover before the arrest and trial which is when the priests are staying ritually pure to as to eat the Passover. Which you claim is a Temple passover held later than the 'Family' Passover meal. Can you substantiate this claim of yours?

I already did ... Were the Passover (sedar) meal and 7 day temple festival REALLY on two different dates?
viewtopic.php?p=1082314#p1082314

. I have posted extracts from the Jewish Encylopaedia which don't appear to mention any such thing. Can you substantiate this claim of yours?

Source The Jewish Encylopedia

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

THE PASSOVER, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ... SABBATH KEEPING

What I did not find was any suggestion that there was a family Passover meal on the 14th.[...] and 'Temple' Passover meal eaten a day or so later. .

See above

[JehovahsWitness]

Nobody denies that John's last supper is represented as the same event as the Synoptic last supper. The point here seems to be that In Matthew Jesus obliquely identifies Judas as the betrayer. Mark and Luke don't. But John has Jesus identify Judas and even tells him to go and do what he has to do, with the silly idea that the disciples thought he was telling Judas to go and buy food.

Well thatnmight be your point, but *my* point was that Jesus instigated his own memorial (using bread and wine) during the Jewish (sedar) meal, and thus John does report Jesus (albeit Indirectly) as celebrating the same Passover as the synoptics.




JW

[Difflugia]

Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Mark 14:14, Luke 22:11, and John 18:28 all refer to the same event with the same phrase, "eat the Passover." In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the Bible (even the NWT) says that this happens before the arrest. Jesus doesn't "eat the Passover" in John at all ....

This is rather a weak argument. John's gospel is not known as a synoptic for a reason: his vision , phrasing and choice of focus is consistently different from the other gospels so there is no reason we should expect him to use the same phraseology as the other three writers.

My argument is weak? You've got things backward here. John does use the same phraseology. What you're trying to argue is that there's "no reason" to think that identical words meant the same thing when John wrote them. That is the weak argument.

• John's "evening meal" is reported as the last Jesus ate before he died; the other writers present Jesus last meal as a Sedar Passover meal given the common elements (See below) we have good reason to believe they are all talking about the same evening

I have no doubt that they're adaptations of the same story, but that doesn't mean you get to ignore how John wrote the story because you prefer a different version. In John's story, the Last Supper explicitly takes place before Passover and is therefore not the Seder. If you want to imagine that John's story took place on the same day as it did in the other Gospels, that's as good a doctrinal position as any, but that's not what the Bible itself says.

• All four gospels (including John's) narrate that during this last meal Jesus identified Judas as the betrayer by dipping bread into the communal dish and handing it to him(Judas). How likely would it be that the Apostle Peter and John (who were privy to the coded answer) asked Jesus the same question twice? (Compare Matthew 26:19-23; Mark 14:20 Luke 22:21 with John 13:26). Evidently if the revealing'of the betrayer happened on the occassion they were eating the Sedar meal then John's "evening meal" was indeed the (sedar) PASSOVER.

In the Synoptics, Judas betrayed Jesus after the Passover Seder. In John, Judas betrayed Jesus after a meal that wasn't the Passover Seder. One doctrinal way to reconcile something like that would be to pretend that the event happened twice, like Jesus cleansing the temple twice or giving two sermons, one on a mountain and one on a level place. Another way is to pretend that they're actually the same event and just ignore the conflicts, like many Christians do for the death of Judas. None of those is what the Bible says, however.

• John presents on the same occassion (the evening meal ) Jesus warning that Peters would deny Him (Jesus) three times. A warning also reported by the synoptics as having been given on the night they ate Sedar (Compare Mat 26:34, Mark 14:30 ; Like 22:34 and John 13:38)

Yes. In the Synoptics, Peter denied Jesus following the Passover Seder. In John, Peter's denial and the crucifixion occurred before the Passover Seder.

• All four gospels (including John) have Jesus leave this "evening meal" to a garden location (John 18:1b) where he was eventually arrested.

And each of the four Gospels tells a different story of what happened there. Did Jesus say to Judas, "Friend, why are you here?" Did he say, "Judas, do you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?" In John, Jesus didn't even acknowledge Judas or give Judas a chance to identify him, because Jesus identified himself ("Who are you looking for? I am he.") Are you doctrinally bound to the notion that each must somehow be historically accurate? Did they therefore happen in some sort of sequence? Such a sequence certainly isn't bibilical.

CONCLUSION We have more than enough indicators from John's text that his "evening meal" was indeed the Passover SEDAR meal presented by the other three writers. ...

CONCLUSION There are no indicators in John's text that the "evening meal" was the Passover SEDER, but if one squints hard enough, one can pretend that John's Gospel shares details with the other Gospels that it actually doesn't.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the Synoptics, Judas betrayed Jesus after the Passover Seder. In John, Judas betrayed Jesus after a meal that wasn't the Passover Seder.

This is circular reasoning, you have yet to refute the evidence that the two events happened on the same evening (ie they were different moments during the same meal).

...If you want to imagine that John's story took place on the same day as it did in the other Gospels, that's as good a doctrinal position as any ...

Thank you for that admission. Yes perhaps I wasnt clear - John focuses on different events or actions on the same evening as the other gospels. The common elements indicate Jesus bread and wine ceremony happened sometime in the course of the same meal the others report on. In short during the synoptics passover meal, Jesus inaugurated the memorial of his own death.

...but that's not what the Bible itself says.

No explicitly no, but that is why critical thinking skills are useful.

In John's story, the Last Supper explicitly takes place before Passover and is therefore not the Seder.

If you are referring to John 18:28 that has already been addressed.

See post 89


JW