Seems as though Christians make countless claims, that God answers prayer(s). Well, does He? If so, when exactly? Are these 'answered prayers' measurable in any tangible and/or objective kind of way? Please do not answer yet... Below, I will place forth an example....
On earth, we have many who are amputees, and/or have downs syndrome, and/or have cerebral palsy. I would imagine countless prayer requests have also been made on their behalf? If so, has God ever answered? Has God ever answered the call to reverse/remove such unwanted afflictions? If so, care to share?
To me, seems as though God ignores the call to such prayer requests, (to remove such conditions). Would you Christians agree?
Is Prayer Measurable?
Moderator: Moderators
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3270
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1544 times
- Been thanked: 1051 times
Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #2When I was a christian, I was always told 'God answers all prayer. It's either YES, NO or WAIT'POI wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:22 am Seems as though Christians make countless claims, that God answers prayer(s). Well, does He? If so, when exactly? Are these 'answered prayers' measurable in any tangible and/or objective kind of way? Please do not answer yet... Below, I will place forth an example....
On earth, we have many who are amputees, and/or have downs syndrome, and/or have cerebral palsy. I would imagine countless prayer requests have also been made on their behalf? If so, has God ever answered? Has God ever answered the call to reverse/remove such unwanted afflictions? If so, care to share?
To me, seems as though God ignores the call to such prayer requests, (to remove such conditions). Would you Christians agree?
Needless to say I rolled me eyes.
That can be said about my Corn God when I pray to him. Or the goddess of Peanut Butter (the smooth kind, not the chunky). Or the Salmon God.
The only thing I can see prayer doing - sometimes - is given comfort to the one praying. And even that's not a given.
A long time ago there was a bus crash in my area. Many people died. My aunt said, about the survivors: "God was with them!" I asked why god wasn't with the ones that died, with that logic.
That same 'logic' applies here: YES, NO, WAIT.
Measurable? Sure, when everyone has their own standards (or lack of).
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3270
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1544 times
- Been thanked: 1051 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #3Yes. I too have heard this response by Christians, ad nauseam This is exactly why I have presented these specific examples (i.e.) amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy. In these three cases, the answer thus far, looks to be 100% of the time --> "NO". And yet, God seems to aid in the help for other physical unwanted conditions (sometimes)? Why skip these three unwanted conditions 100% of the time? This/these question(s) is/are placed forth to the Christian, and not you Though I do appreciate your insightnobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:41 am That same 'logic' applies here: YES, NO, WAIT.
Measurable? Sure, when everyone has their own standards (or lack of).
Is it just as likely there exists no god there, at all; and Christians merely draw whatever connections they so choose? Is it possible prayer is not really measurable in any tangible and/or objective kind of way? Is it also possible that 'answered prayer' happens at the same rate as chance alone? If not, why then does He, 100% of the time, skip the request(s) to reverse amputees, downs syndrome, and cerebral palsy; while also claiming God sometimes aids in the cure for other physical conditions?
In other words, why has God placed these (3) afflictions on the exclusion list?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #4Because tactile 'things' are hard to make happen from something that exists only in one's mind, I suspect.POI wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:59 amYes. I too have heard this response by Christians, ad nauseam This is exactly why I have presented these specific examples (i.e.) amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy. In these three cases, the answer thus far, looks to be 100% of the time --> "NO". And yet, God seems to aid in the help for other physical unwanted conditions (sometimes)? Why skip these three unwanted conditions 100% of the time? This/these question(s) is/are placed forth to the Christian, and not you Though I do appreciate your insightnobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:41 am That same 'logic' applies here: YES, NO, WAIT.
Measurable? Sure, when everyone has their own standards (or lack of).
Is it just as likely there exists no god there, at all; and Christians merely draw whatever connections they so choose? Is it possible prayer is not really measurable in any tangible and/or objective kind of way? Is it also possible that 'answered prayer' happens at the same rate as chance alone? If not, why then does He, 100% of the time, skip the request(s) to reverse amputees, downs syndrome, and cerebral palsy; while also claiming God sometimes aids in the cure for other physical conditions?
In other words, why has God placed these (3) afflictions on the exclusion list?
Or maybe god's busy (on holiday)?
Kidding aside, one can make anything responsible for anything they want in their own life - especially when there's nothing tactile as proof (amputee vs. someone with a cold - most likely the person with the cold will get better well before the amputee regrows a limb and thus "GOD!")
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3270
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1544 times
- Been thanked: 1051 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #5Right! But I'm still optimistic that a Christian or Christians will chime in here to my given inquiry. Meaning, we have yet to see these (3) conditions reversed. Hence, we currently have no examples for which the interested observer can attribute to natural processes (and/or) by 'God'. Amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy remain in each and every individual, to their deaths. None of them are reversed, ever...nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:17 pmBecause tactile 'things' are hard to make happen from something that exists only in one's mind, I suspect.POI wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:59 amYes. I too have heard this response by Christians, ad nauseam This is exactly why I have presented these specific examples (i.e.) amputees, downs, and cerebral palsy. In these three cases, the answer thus far, looks to be 100% of the time --> "NO". And yet, God seems to aid in the help for other physical unwanted conditions (sometimes)? Why skip these three unwanted conditions 100% of the time? This/these question(s) is/are placed forth to the Christian, and not you Though I do appreciate your insightnobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:41 am That same 'logic' applies here: YES, NO, WAIT.
Measurable? Sure, when everyone has their own standards (or lack of).
Is it just as likely there exists no god there, at all; and Christians merely draw whatever connections they so choose? Is it possible prayer is not really measurable in any tangible and/or objective kind of way? Is it also possible that 'answered prayer' happens at the same rate as chance alone? If not, why then does He, 100% of the time, skip the request(s) to reverse amputees, downs syndrome, and cerebral palsy; while also claiming God sometimes aids in the cure for other physical conditions?
In other words, why has God placed these (3) afflictions on the exclusion list?
Or maybe god's busy (on holiday)?
Kidding aside, one can make anything responsible for anything they want in their own life - especially when there's nothing tactile as proof (amputee vs. someone with a cold - most likely the person with the cold will get better well before the amputee regrows a limb and thus "GOD!")
So I ask the Christian, why does God ignore these (3) requests perpetually; while also claiming God sometimes 'cures' other unwanted physical conditions?
If God answers the call to reverse unwanted physical conditions, seems as though the rate of reversal would be the same in amputees, as they are in cancer, pneumonia, etc.....
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 5993
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6607 times
- Been thanked: 3209 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #6A quick consult of 'The Giant Omnibus of Christian Loopholes' reveals the answer to your question. God works in mysterious ways.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
- Diagoras
- Guru
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
- Has thanked: 170 times
- Been thanked: 579 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #7[Replying to brunumb in post #6]
There's also the possibility that it's not being done right.
However, the prayer of faith only promises to 'save' and 'raise up' the sick. It's possible to interpret verse 15 as being concerned only with the 'sickness' of sin, not as relating to physical injuries. Maybe a bishop could clarify the small print for us.
There's also the possibility that it's not being done right.
So those amputees might need a bishop to do the praying and oiling 'in the name of the Lord' to regain their limbs.James 5:14-15 wrote:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
However, the prayer of faith only promises to 'save' and 'raise up' the sick. It's possible to interpret verse 15 as being concerned only with the 'sickness' of sin, not as relating to physical injuries. Maybe a bishop could clarify the small print for us.
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11342
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 312 times
- Been thanked: 357 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #8Probably not, you can't even measure has someone prayed really, what or who did he pray...
I don't believe God ignores anything. But, I don't know what have other people really prayed and I don't know what things have happened because of their prayers, therefore I think it is purely a matter of belief.POI wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:22 amOn earth, we have many who are amputees, and/or have downs syndrome, and/or have cerebral palsy. I would imagine countless prayer requests have also been made on their behalf? If so, has God ever answered? Has God ever answered the call to reverse/remove such unwanted afflictions? If so, care to share?
To me, seems as though God ignores the call to such prayer requests...
But, if you would know surely that God does such things in certain cases, would it really make any meaningful difference to you?
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7958
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
- Has thanked: 932 times
- Been thanked: 3486 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #9I would like to say 'Surely - if it was proven that prayer did seem to work for Christians.' But to be honest, wouldn't we have some more questions? And wouldn't there BE problems? Like somebody prays for their neighbour to get hit by a truck so he can romance his wife. But God doesn't do that for him. Ok, No Christians (Real Christians) would ever do that, so an exhibition removal of a mountain into the sea as promised in the synoptics? We absolutely check that no living thing is on it so why wouldn't God move it? Ok, then; just a thousand tons of dirt to make way for a by -pass. No? Cue the excuses like God will not prove he exists because that nullifies Faith. And of course arms and legs don't grow back, pray as you like. Just stuff that does (or could) happen without a god. Just give Him the credit when it works (insulting the people who made it work by not giving Them the credit) and shrug it off when it doesn't.
And the implication of God being non -religious arises when it works for Muslims and Hindus, too. I'll bet it does, because my prayers have been answered a couple of times - but I wasn't praying. It's the old problem of the Believer brainwashing themselves into 'seeing things in their life' that validate their beliefs when they actually don't (1). Counting the hits and ignoring the misses; firing the arrow and painting the target around it, and of course making the excuses 'Sometimes God says No'.
We end up with 'How would it look different if there was no god there?' And the inevitable appeal to Faith. Faith is not a valid or even beneficial way of arriving at conclusions. Evidence is. Real evidence, not the Cold readings and Faith -healings of religious apologetics. But aside from debunking the results, arguing that it can't work unfailingly (God would HAVE to say 'No' sometimes) or even detectably (as that would abrogate Faith) but even in a measurable way - which is what Christians do claim, is there any evidence even after discounting the results of bias; finding the results the Faithful want to find?
I did read of a study of Prayer in a hospital. With a check of people Not prayed over. As I recall, there was no real difference and even a slight lacking of improvement in those prayed over. I might try to find it as it would be significant if true, but I haven't seen the claim for a long time.
(1) especially when it's even trivial stuff that goes right - like the iconic finding of the car -keys...praise De Lawd.
And the implication of God being non -religious arises when it works for Muslims and Hindus, too. I'll bet it does, because my prayers have been answered a couple of times - but I wasn't praying. It's the old problem of the Believer brainwashing themselves into 'seeing things in their life' that validate their beliefs when they actually don't (1). Counting the hits and ignoring the misses; firing the arrow and painting the target around it, and of course making the excuses 'Sometimes God says No'.
We end up with 'How would it look different if there was no god there?' And the inevitable appeal to Faith. Faith is not a valid or even beneficial way of arriving at conclusions. Evidence is. Real evidence, not the Cold readings and Faith -healings of religious apologetics. But aside from debunking the results, arguing that it can't work unfailingly (God would HAVE to say 'No' sometimes) or even detectably (as that would abrogate Faith) but even in a measurable way - which is what Christians do claim, is there any evidence even after discounting the results of bias; finding the results the Faithful want to find?
I did read of a study of Prayer in a hospital. With a check of people Not prayed over. As I recall, there was no real difference and even a slight lacking of improvement in those prayed over. I might try to find it as it would be significant if true, but I haven't seen the claim for a long time.
(1) especially when it's even trivial stuff that goes right - like the iconic finding of the car -keys...praise De Lawd.
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3270
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1544 times
- Been thanked: 1051 times
Re: Is Prayer Measurable?
Post #10Has a Bishop ever claimed to have "saved and 'raised up' the sick"? If so, are they also capable of asking God to restore one's limb(s), reversing downs syndrome, and and/or reversing cerebral palsy?Diagoras wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:14 am [Replying to brunumb in post #6]
There's also the possibility that it's not being done right.
So those amputees might need a bishop to do the praying and oiling 'in the name of the Lord' to regain their limbs.James 5:14-15 wrote:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
However, the prayer of faith only promises to 'save' and 'raise up' the sick. It's possible to interpret verse 15 as being concerned only with the 'sickness' of sin, not as relating to physical injuries. Maybe a bishop could clarify the small print for us.
The Bible has many other verses about prayer: i.e. (Matthew 7:7), (Matthew 21:22), (Mark 11:24), (John 14:13-14), (John 16:23)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."