End of a marriage death?

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End of a marriage death?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

In another thread, a poster*, in a conversation, a poster said the below:
"Since marriage is biblically only terminated by death..."

This made me wonder 'why'. If death (the end of the earthly body) is terminated when said body dies, but the soul lives on, why does death have to be the end, especially if the marriage is 'preformed' within a religious ceremony?

For discussion:
Seems to me, if a 'christian' marries a couple, and 'blesses' the marriage, and their souls never die, why does the godly blessed marriage not continue on forever in eternity?


*Thanks to JehovahsWitness for the inspiration of this question.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #21

Post by POI »

bjs1 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:32 pm
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:28 pm
bjs1 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:09 pm
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:46 pm If the widow or widower were to remarry, who is the widow or widower bound to after their own death in the afterlife? Say both marriages were 25 years in length.... Or, is the argument that the earthly married couple are not reunited in Heaven after their earthly deaths?
This is directly answered by Jesus in Mark 12:18-27. A group of Sadducees (temple priests, upper class, who said that there is no heaven and once you are dead that’s it) told Jesus a story. They asked about a woman who had been married seven and times and wondered whose husband she would be in heaven.

Jesus replied, “When the dead rise, they will neither marry or be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

The couple can be reunited, but not in marriage. Marriage is an inherently exclusive relationship. Heaven is a place of unfettered love that cannot be limited to just one relationship. There is too much love in heaven for there to be marriage.
Seems you have now opened, yet another, can of worms. By the likes of your chosen 'cherry picked' verses, please now allow me to do the same.
I have not "cherry picked" verses. Please feel free to read the entire passage. I addressed the issue as it is brought up in context and concerning this specific issue.
Well, I won't quibble over the accusation ;) As it remains, we <at least> have a contradiction between your chosen text (vs) mine? You have yet made no attempt to reconcile. See below....
bjs1 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:32 pm
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:28 pm If, as you state, 'Heaven is a place of unfettered love for all equally', then why does the Bible go out of it's way to clarify 'family first'?
I am always caution with "why" questions, but my best deduction would be: We are not currently in heaven. My first duty in this life is to my immediate family. Heaven is, as I hinted at already, different.
Why the heck would the Bible go out of it's way to express a differing "moral code" for earth, verses heaven? Meaning, why would the Bible go out of it's way to tell the reader to prioritize his/her own family, if this is going to be done away with in the afterlife?
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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #22

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:33 pm Second: there is marriage in heaven... there is a marriage between the Lamb (Christ) and His Bride (Christians).

Christ is the Bridegroom. Christians are the Bride.

We (men and women in Christ) have a husband, King, Lord, Master.
Then does this mean the Catholic priests and nuns have it right here on earth? Meaning, they are the ones correctly devoting themselves solely to the Master? If so, why the heck does the Bible instruct it's readers to prioritize <family> above other humans here on earth at all? Why not just instruct all to do the same as the priests and nuns?

The provided answers to this topic merely raises MORE questions, then to satisfy any actual answers -- (quite frankly)...
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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #23

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:06 pm
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:33 pm Second: there is marriage in heaven... there is a marriage between the Lamb (Christ) and His Bride (Christians).

Christ is the Bridegroom. Christians are the Bride.

We (men and women in Christ) have a husband, King, Lord, Master.
Then does this mean the Catholic priests and nuns have it right here on earth? Meaning, they are the ones correctly devoting themselves solely to the Master?


No, but because devoting oneself to a religion is not the same thing as devoting oneself to the Master.
If so, why the heck does the Bible instruct it's readers to prioritize <family> above other humans here on earth at all?
From the verses you supplied above to bjs, your household is your responsibility (not burden, but responsibility) and you should be caring for them. But that does not mean that they come before God or Christ, at least not if we are serving God and His Son.

God and His Son come first.


Christ did not put His mother and brothers first when they came to 'take him in hand', when they wanted to speak to Him while He was doing the work of His Father. He loved them of course, and He made certain that His mother was provided for after His death (and resurrection and ascension). But He also said:

“Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”


But of course we also love our households (and God knows this; hence God saves entire households, just as in Egypt, when the blood of the lamb protected the entire house from Death passing over; just as God saved Noah and Noah's family; just as the angels told Lot to gather all who belonged to him to come out of the Sodom and Gomorrah and survive the destruction of those cities).

We put God and His Son first, they take care of the rest.
Why not just instruct all to do the same as the priests and nuns?
For one, Christ never said that a person must be celibate or that a person could not have a spouse and children. Many of the apostles had families (wives, children).



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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #24

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm No, but because devoting oneself to a religion is not the same thing as devoting oneself to the Master.
But this is not what Catholics believe. (i.e.): https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-cant-a- ... ever-marry

"Theologically, it may be pointed out that priests serve in the place of Christ and therefore, their ministry specially configures them to Christ. As is clear from Scripture, Christ was not married (except in a mystical sense, to the Church). By remaining celibate and devoting themselves to the service of the Church, priests more closely model, configure themselves to, and consecrate themselves to Christ."

Thus, this Catholic response looks to directly resemble what you stated above; that in Heaven you are 'devoted/married' to the Master, (and no other human). Seems as though Catholics adopt this philosophy here on earth. So I must ask... Did/do you remain celibate, and are also only devoted to Christ? If not, why not? How do you decide which Bible verse(s) to ignore?
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm
If so, why the heck does the Bible instruct it's readers to prioritize <family> above other humans here on earth at all?
From the verses you supplied above to bjs, your household is your responsibility (not burden, but responsibility) and you should be caring for them. But that does not mean that they come before God or Christ, at least not if we are serving God and His Son.
God's standard looks to be different on earth, verses Heaven? Do the Catholics have it right? Is it better not to have a core family, for which you prioritize over other humans here on earth? If not, then why does it suggest doing so in the Bible? When, all-the-while, the only true priority is God? Seems as though the Bible writers are purveyors of confusion?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #25

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:46 pm
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm No, but because devoting oneself to a religion is not the same thing as devoting oneself to the Master.
But this is not what Catholics believe. (i.e.): https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-cant-a- ... ever-marry

"Theologically, it may be pointed out that priests serve in the place of Christ and therefore, their ministry specially configures them to Christ. As is clear from Scripture, Christ was not married (except in a mystical sense, to the Church). By remaining celibate and devoting themselves to the service of the Church, priests more closely model, configure themselves to, and consecrate themselves to Christ."
So is the Catholic church saying here that they more closely resemble Christ than the apostles? That they are closer to Christ than even the apostles? At least some of the apostles who Christ chose were married and had children.

Thus, this Catholic response looks to directly resemble what you stated above; that in Heaven you are 'devoted/married' to the Master, (and no other human). Seems as though Catholics adopt this philosophy here on earth. So I must ask... Did/do you remain celibate, and are also only devoted to Christ? If not, why not? How do you decide which Bible verse(s) to ignore?
What bible verse do you think I am ignoring? More important what command from Christ do you think I am ignoring? All you have supplied is a quote of a catholic belief.

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm
If so, why the heck does the Bible instruct it's readers to prioritize <family> above other humans here on earth at all?
From the verses you supplied above to bjs, your household is your responsibility (not burden, but responsibility) and you should be caring for them. But that does not mean that they come before God or Christ, at least not if we are serving God and His Son.
God's standard looks to be different on earth, verses Heaven? Do the Catholics have it right? Is it better not to have a core family, for which you prioritize over other humans here on earth? If not, then why does it suggest doing so in the Bible? When, all-the-while, the only true priority is God? Seems as though the Bible writers are purveyors of confusion?
First, Christ commented on who is our mother, brother, sister, etc. (as quoted in my previous post).

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by 'the only true priority', but the two most important commandments (as Christ said) are:

Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

God is FIRST (and His Son)... but that will lead to doing the second commandment as well (love your neighbor as yourself, and as Christ also said, love even your enemies, bless those who curse you, give to those in need, etc, etc.)

Again as Christ said,

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; 38and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it

Christ (and His Father of course) first.

(but obviously if you have sons and daughters, you are not celibate)



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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #26

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:13 pm Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:46 pm
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm No, but because devoting oneself to a religion is not the same thing as devoting oneself to the Master.
But this is not what Catholics believe. (i.e.): https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-cant-a- ... ever-marry

"Theologically, it may be pointed out that priests serve in the place of Christ and therefore, their ministry specially configures them to Christ. As is clear from Scripture, Christ was not married (except in a mystical sense, to the Church). By remaining celibate and devoting themselves to the service of the Church, priests more closely model, configure themselves to, and consecrate themselves to Christ."
So is the Catholic church saying here that they more closely resemble Christ than the apostles? That they are closer to Christ than even the apostles? At least some of the apostles who Christ chose were married and had children.
In the prior post, you stated "devoting oneself to a religion is not the same thing as devoting oneself to the Master.". Whether you want to call your belief system a "religion", or other, the apparent expected over-arching mantra is as follows.... The be-all-end-all is "God first". Seems the Catholics have this down already....

Apparently, in Heaven, according to you and the other Christian interlocutor in this thread, you both state you will enter into a 'marriage with Christ/God', and you will no longer be married to a spouse, like you are here on earth.

I'll cut to the chase... If there exists no human to human marriages in Heaven, why instruct them on earth at all? Why not just tell the reader to devote yourself to God, like you are expected to, and will do, in Heaven? God looks to be imposing a differing set of standards <before vs. after> natural death? Which begs another question... Will any other standards change, after you ascend to Heaven?
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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #27

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to POI in post #26]

I'll cut to the chase... If there exists no human to human marriages in Heaven, why instruct them on earth at all?


Well, we wouldn't have gotten past Adam and Eve, for one. That would have been a very small human race. No children.

But marriage also helps us to understand the relationship between Christ and His Bride; it is a covenant, a contract, a union - someone to be one with.

Plus many people want to have a spouse, a partner, someone to share their life with, have children with. (nothing wrong if you don't want that, either, but many people do)

Why not just tell the reader to devote yourself to God,


You can be married and still devote yourself to God.

Who says you cannot? Might be harder for you if you and your spouse are not on the same page regarding God, but that doesn't mean you can't put God first.

Which begs another question... Will any other standards change, after you ascend to Heaven?
I don't see that you have demonstrated that this standard has changed. If you are serving God and His Son, they come first.


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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #28

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm marriage also helps us to understand the relationship between Christ and His Bride; it is a covenant, a contract, a union - someone to be one with.
This response makes no sense. Many will never get married. Some may never even have the option to be married, due to dying young, being deformed, born with brain trauma, etc.... Does this mean that the ones, which never got married, cannot have a true relationship with their Master in Heaven? I think not ;) So please try again....

Why instruct humans to marry each other here on earth, and also prioritize their core family above all other humans, if this will not happen in Heaven?
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm Plus many people want to have a spouse, a partner, someone to share their life with, have children with. (nothing wrong if you don't want that, either, but many people do)
I don't think God cares much about what humans want; unless such humans want what God also wants ;) Please try again.
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm You can be married and still devote yourself to God.
Again, why be married to another human, and prioritize their needs, if this will not happen in Heaven? Why is <the standard> different while on earth vs. Heaven?
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm Who says you cannot? Might be harder for you if you and your spouse are not on the same page regarding God, but that doesn't mean you can't put God first.
Again, human to human marriage will not exist in Heaven. If human to human marriage (with higher priority to their family) will not exist in Heaven, then why bother to mention to the Bible reader at all?
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm
Which begs another question... Will any other standards change, after you ascend to Heaven?
I don't see that you have demonstrated that this standard has changed.
If no human to human marriage will exist in Heaven, verses earth, then <the standard> has CHANGED :)
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm If you are serving God and His Son, they come first.
Again, you do not need to be married to serve God first. So again, why instruct humans to marry other humans, if humans will not be married to other humans in Heaven?
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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #29

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:48 pm
tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm marriage also helps us to understand the relationship between Christ and His Bride; it is a covenant, a contract, a union - someone to be one with.
This response makes no sense. Many will never get married. Some may never even have the option to be married, due to dying young, being deformed, born with brain trauma, etc.... Does this mean that the ones, which never got married, cannot have a true relationship with their Master in Heaven? I think not ;) So please try again....
You are reading more into what I said than what I actually said.
Why instruct humans to marry each other here on earth, and also prioritize their core family above all other humans, if this will not happen in Heaven?
I responded more on this question in the previous posts already, but... actually... it will happen in heaven, as the Household of God (and again though, Christ spoke this from when he was here in the flesh about other humans: here are my mother and brother, everyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my mother and brother...).

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm Plus many people want to have a spouse, a partner, someone to share their life with, have children with. (nothing wrong if you don't want that, either, but many people do)
I don't think God cares much about what humans want; unless such humans want what God also wants ;) Please try again.
No need to try again when you are just telling us what you think God cares about, without supporting that statement at all.

If God did not care what anyone wants (especially His own people), then why would He ever have bothered to answer prayers?

Israel complained about having only manna... God sent them meat as well, even though what He gave them should have been enough (not judging, just saying).

Didn't Christ (who is the reflection of God) heal people because He had compassion on them? Heal people who came to Him and asked to be healed? Obviously He (and so also His Father) cared about what they wanted. And why else would we be permitted (even instructed) to ask in Christ's name, if God did not care what we want?

What we want does not/should not come FIRST... but that doesn't mean that we cannot ask and that God cannot grant what we want. God's will just comes first. If we are following Christ's example (and we should be if we are His disciples), well, even Christ prayed for God's will to be done over His own will, when He asked for the cup to be taken from Him. "If possible, may this cup be taken away... if not, your will be done."


tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:13 pm You can be married and still devote yourself to God.
Again, why be married to another human, and prioritize their needs, if this will not happen in Heaven? Why is <the standard> different while on earth vs. Heaven?
You will be prioritizing the one you are married to in heaven (and on earth): the Master.
Again, you do not need to be married to serve God first. So again, why instruct humans to marry other humans, if humans will not be married to other humans in Heaven?
Asked and answered (re: having children, wanting to be married, love, having union with, entering into a covenant and learning what it means to be a spouse, etc).

And you're right... you don't need to be married to serve God first. You also don't need to be celibate or unmarried.


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Re: End of a marriage death?

Post #30

Post by brunumb »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:41 pm God and His Son come first.
Unlike our fellow human beings God and His Son can look after themselves. When God and His Son actually start looking after humanity, then they can reasonably expect to come first, whatever that even means. How does one quantify love that we should love God and His Son more than anyone else?
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