If you don't follow a/the Church...

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Willum
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If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #1

Post by Willum »

If you claim to believe in the Christian god, but do not follow or believe in the practices of any church, and have your own unique perspective of this God, how can you distinguish this from a god you have simply made up?

In other words, how can you know your beliefs about God are better than a churches?
In other words, how do you know, of all the perspectives and interpretations of God, your's are correct? Or that God is what you have imagined?
And if not, how do you justify inventing or imagining a God in defiance of the certainly greater wisdom of a congregation?

If you are wrong, is it not CERTAINLY blasphemy to invent details of God you have no basis for believing are true?

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #61

Post by Eloi »

Tam said: "I am listening to Him, to Christ Himself, the living Word of God" ... Anyone can say that ... The point is who else, besides you, is going to believe it; if it is just you, you're probably delusional (nothing personal).

No servant of God in any age has been especially unique in his service; in ancient times there was a kind of school of prophets of Jehovah; some anointed others and Jehovah gave them missions; kings came from lineages and their courts had advisers, etc. Even Jesus was announced and baptized by John the Baptist, and when John asked why, what did he answer (Matt. 3:15) ? ... and then he had followers, a group of them, united.

Even Jehovah confirmed that Jesus was his beloved Son by telling some of those who were following him directly, so that there would be no doubt (Matt. 17:5,6; 2 Pet. 1:16-18). Note what Peter said there:

2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we acquainted YOU with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard borne from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain.

Many people suffer from delusions of grandeur.

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #62

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Eloi wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:39 am Tam said: "I am listening to Him, to Christ Himself, the living Word of God" ... Anyone can say that ... The point is who else, besides you, is going to believe it; if it is just you, you're probably delusional (nothing personal).
A - Christ is the One who said that His sheep will listen to His voice; He is the One who continued to speak and teach after His death/resurrection/ascension (as even the bible clearly shows). I believe Him, even if no one else ever did. He is the One to whom God told us to listen, after all. That being said...

B - I am not the only one who hears and listens to His voice. Of course I am not. His sheep listen to His voice, as He said, and at the very least, these few who belong to Him would know that it is possible. It is also corroborated by those who bore witness to Him and Him speaking, in what is written. Not just in the OT (though Abraham was praised for his faith because he heard and obeyed), but also in the NT. Because of course, they also listened to His voice, and followed Him.

C - My faith does not depend upon what other people believe of me. My faith is built upon Christ (the Rock) and I depend upon Him. As well, if something is true, it is true even if no one believes it. If something is false, it is false even if everyone believes it.

For a non-believer, I can understand the denial or rejection. That person does not believe there exists a Christ TO speak. But for a Christian, for a person of faith, it is supposed to be about Christ. We are supposed to be listening to Him, following Him, obeying Him. So where is the faith from all those who profess to have it in Christ, who deny that He speaks (as living beings speak), or that His sheep listen to His voice and hear Him call their name?

No servant of God in any age has been especially unique in his service; in ancient times there was a kind of school of prophets of Jehovah; some anointed others and Jehovah gave them missions; kings came from lineages and their courts had advisers, etc. Even Jesus was announced and baptized by John the Baptist, and when John asked why, what did he answer (Matt. 3:15) ? ... and then he had followers, a group of them, united.
Well... many in that group left him, when He taught something they found too hard to bear. They did not truly believe that He was the Son of God.

The rest remained in Christ, following their HEAD.

Just as God and His Son SAID to do.

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

"If anyone loves me, they will remain in my word. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with them."

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."


And in keeping with the question asked in the OP, as has been stated throughout the thread:

No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.


Christ is also the image of God, the true and faithful witness (of His Father), the Word of God, the One who speaks and does just as His Father has taught Him. If we know Christ, THEN we know His Father also.

Many people suffer from delusions of grandeur.

People said (and say) the same things of Christ. (and of those who belong to Him as well)

**

Perhaps now you will go back and answer the questions I asked of you, regarding the claims you made in your post?

viewtopic.php?p=1075859#p1075859


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #63

Post by Willum »

[Replying to tam in post #62]

Sorry Tam,

Eloi has made a sound point. You have no foundations for the stance you claim, and although you quoted your scriptures, your higher level stance is, by your own words, unjustified.
To quote the parlance, “the Devil may quote scripture,” and sadly, your interpretation are indistinguishable.
Perhaps you should find a church.

Peace be wit yous,

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #64

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Willum wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:12 pm [Replying to tam in post #62]

Sorry Tam,

Eloi has made a sound point.


But a point that is lacking faith.
You have no foundations for the stance you claim,
Of course I do, but that has all been posted through this thread (and others).
and although you quoted your scriptures, your higher level stance is, by your own words, unjustified.
That doesn't even make sense, and so it is certainly not unjustified by 'my own words'.
To quote the parlance, “the Devil may quote scripture,” and sadly, your interpretation are indistinguishable.
I did not interpret. I posted the words that Christ spoke directly, and the examples of Him speaking are direct from the testimonies in what is written (that should at least mean something to someone who claims to follow the 'bible'; though Christ has something to say about even that: John 5:39, 40). On the other hand, one must interpret in order to dismiss His words and the examples that He gave us, the examples that clearly show Him speaking and teaching and leading His sheep, even calling them by name.


Christ also quoted scripture.
Perhaps you should find a church.
Thank you, but I am (in) the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ, made of people, all having Christ as their Head.
Peace be wit yous,
Thank you, and peace to you, and to you all.
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #65

Post by Eloi »

God's servants try to be reasonable people; they know that the heart of the human being many times deceives oneself in its desperation or even in its own selfish desire. A person's imagination does not necessarily tell him reality.

Jer. 17: 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?

That is why there must be a balance between what we think of ourselves and what others really perceive; no one can know how others really feel without listening to them.

Pro. 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But in the end it leads to death.

Listening to advice is definitely a way of showing that we are really wise, and the opposite is also clearly outlined in the Scriptures.

Pro. 26:12 Have you seen a man who thinks he is wise?
There is more hope for someone stupid than for him.

While it is true that one should make sure of the things one hears from the Scriptures themselves, the likelihood of God giving an individual person any particular and special understanding about them is completely nil, so any claim by anyone that that is the case, is completely false. God did not cause the Bible to be written for any one person's interpretation. The servants of God are people who have to live in community. When Elijah told Jehovah that he was worried because there was no other like him, Jehovah told him that his concern and "dramma" was unnecessary, because there were several thousand others who remained loyal to him (1 Kings 19:14,18) .

There are also several new phenomena related to the internet: the fictitious characters that some people create in forums and other social networks with some agenda in mind... and those who believe they are enlightened and in real life no one listens to them, so they take advantage the network to express themselves.

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #66

Post by historia »

tam wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:23 am
I am not just looking to His words and deeds as recorded (though there are those as well).
Thank you, that answered my second question. I'm still a little fuzzy on the first one, though:
tam wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:23 am
I am listening to Him, to Christ Himself, the living Word of God (who is alive and who speaks, as most living beings tend to do).
But what, exactly, does that entail?

Are you saying you receive direct audible revelations from Christ?

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #67

Post by Clownboat »

Willum wrote:Sorry Tam,

Eloi has made a sound point.

Tam wrote:But a point that is lacking faith.
Which makes it all the greater.

In the real world, faith (like being meek) is not something to be proud of.
Faith is literally required if you want to believe in something that is false. Therefore, to seek to have faith is to seek to have a mechanism to arrive at more false beliefs then true beliefs.

I cannot provide evidence for Allah. This belief takes faith.
I cannot provide evidence for alien abductions. This belief takes faith.
I cannot provide evidence for Bigfoot. This belief takes faith.
I cannot provide evidence for any of the available god concepts. These beliefs take faith.
I can provide evidence for Evolution. Faith is not required.

I suggest you don't address how faith is necessary to hold a false belief and instead quote scripture from your preferred holy book that will tell us just how great faith is.
Heck, might as well just claim a god spoke to you and told you first hand. Perhaps I'll employ some faith and believe your claim. (Stated for effect).
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #68

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
historia wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:23 am
I am not just looking to His words and deeds as recorded (though there are those as well).
Thank you, that answered my second question. I'm still a little fuzzy on the first one, though:
tam wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:23 am
I am listening to Him, to Christ Himself, the living Word of God (who is alive and who speaks, as most living beings tend to do).
But what, exactly, does that entail?

Are you saying you receive direct audible revelations from Christ?
It means that Christ speaks. He is the Spirit, and so He speaks as a spirit. He can give someone a revelation (as He did with John), but He can also simply answer a question, or, as He often did when in the flesh, ASK a question (as a means of teaching, leading someone into what is true).

So, direct? Yes.
Audible, as in with the physical ears? I don't think so (though I have clearly heard Him call my name, waking me up, but that would not have been heard by anyone else). But within, in the spirit? Yes. He speaks to everyone, mind you, but not everyone hears or listens, or recognizes His voice. You have to listen; you also have to want to know what is true, or - just as people have selective hearing when someone is telling them something 'physically' they don't want to hear - people can have selective hearing when the Spirit is telling them something they do not want to hear.


Why do you complain to him
that he responds to no one’s words[a]?
14
For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though no one perceives it.
15
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on people
as they slumber in their beds,
16
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
17
to turn them from wrongdoing
and keep them from pride,
18
to preserve them from the pit,
their lives from perishing by the sword.




Today, God speaks to us through His Son, His Word.

Such as in the following examples:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

Those are words that Philip heard.

Same here with Peter:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

I testify to the same.

As a quick reference in response to this kind of question:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28577


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #69

Post by Eloi »

The person who believes that Christ tells him that he must follow a path alone, is most likely listening to the voice of the enemy of Christ (2 Cor. 11:14).

When a predator wishes to devour a prey, he tries to isolate it from the herd to attack it alone (1 Pet. 5:8). Jesus would never isolate one of his little sheep from the rest of his flock.

Some rebellious sheep, yeap ... who wants to walk on his own, following another voice instead of that of the shepherd, the one leading the whole flock, and sometimes trying to get back the lost one.

A sheep alone is never following the voice of the shepherd; she has separated herself from the rest of the flock and the shepherd, who is followed by the rest of the flock. Thats the reality; that other one is just a lost sheep.

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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...

Post #70

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Eloi wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:07 pm The person who believes that Christ tells him that he must follow a path alone, is most likely listening to the voice of the enemy of Christ.
If a person is in Christ, that person is never alone. Christ (and so also His Father) is with them. Especially as Christ said, "If anyone loves me, they will remain in my word. My Father will love them and we will come and make our home with them."

Note that He does not say that first a person must go and find a group of people who claim to be 'the true religion', and listen to what they say (even if what they say is not what Christ says), and then He and His Father will come and make their home with that person. No, he says, that if someone remains in HIS word, His Father will love that person, and they will come and make their home with that person.

I know this promise is true because my Lord has kept it with me.
When a predator wishes to devour a prey, he tries to isolate it from the herd to attack it alone.
And when a herd of cattle is stampeding toward a cliff, the cattle who are just going along with the group don't know they're about to go over a cliff.

Jesus would never isolate one of his little sheep from the rest of his flock.
But if He has a sheep who is isolated, He can and will find and call that sheep - to come to Him.

Christ FIRST.

And just because some group claims to be his flock does not mean that group actually IS that flock. Matt 7:21. This is why one must hold all things up against the Light (Christ), the One to whom God SAID to listen. Test the inspired expression. Because it is Christ who is the Truth, and in His Word we who love Him are to remain.
Some rebellious sheep, yeap ... who wants to walk on his own, following another voice instead of that of the shepherd, the one leading the whole flock, and sometimes trying to get back the lost one.
The ironic thing here is that when someone is following the voice of the Shepherd, there are many people who profess to have faith who claim that Shepherd does not even speak. Just as their religious leaders claim the Shepherd does not speak, meaning of course that those leaders CANNOT be listening to the Shepherds voice.
A sheep alone is never following the voice of the shepherd; she has separated herself from the rest of the flock and the shepherd, who is followed by the rest of the flock. Thats the reality; that other one is just a lost sheep.
See all of the above. And unless this and the previous posts are just sermons (as you defined a sermon in this thread and accused me of giving), perhaps you would consider answering the questions I asked on page 4 of this thread?




Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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