If you claim to believe in the Christian god, but do not follow or believe in the practices of any church, and have your own unique perspective of this God, how can you distinguish this from a god you have simply made up?
In other words, how can you know your beliefs about God are better than a churches?
In other words, how do you know, of all the perspectives and interpretations of God, your's are correct? Or that God is what you have imagined?
And if not, how do you justify inventing or imagining a God in defiance of the certainly greater wisdom of a congregation?
If you are wrong, is it not CERTAINLY blasphemy to invent details of God you have no basis for believing are true?
If you don't follow a/the Church...
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #2Peace to you Willum, you ask some interesting questions.
Therefore, I am not making up a belief about God, or relying upon my own interpretation or perspective. I am listening/looking to Christ to know God. Christ is the One shows us who His Father is; teaches us (through word and example) who His Father truly is. It is also Christ who is Wisdom, and there is no man who would have greater wisdom for me to submit to, than Christ Himself.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
If by "Christian god" you are referring to the God and Father of Christ... well, I do follow the HEAD of the Church: Christ Jaheshua. The Church is His Body, His Bride, made of people... but HE is the HEAD and the One to whom we (who follow and belong to Him and His Father) are to listen, to follow, to obey. I don't follow the people, I follow the Head (as we are all supposed to do if we are part of His Body; if we are His disciples).
Therefore, I am not making up a belief about God, or relying upon my own interpretation or perspective. I am listening/looking to Christ to know God. Christ is the One shows us who His Father is; teaches us (through word and example) who His Father truly is. It is also Christ who is Wisdom, and there is no man who would have greater wisdom for me to submit to, than Christ Himself.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #3Being part of a church or not has little to nothing to do with the ability to make up and or follow a made up god. If you're not part of a church, you're following a god YOU made up. If you are part of a church, you're following a god the CHURCH made up.Willum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:24 pm If you claim to believe in the Christian god, but do not follow or believe in the practices of any church, and have your own unique perspective of this God, how can you distinguish this from a god you have simply made up?
In other words, how can you know your beliefs about God are better than a churches?
In other words, how do you know, of all the perspectives and interpretations of God, your's are correct? Or that God is what you have imagined?
And if not, how do you justify inventing or imagining a God in defiance of the certainly greater wisdom of a congregation?
If you are wrong, is it not CERTAINLY blasphemy to invent details of God you have no basis for believing are true?
How can one figure out if their belief is better than that of a church's belief? By simply believing they are. The only thing tactile and provable beliefs have about them are the person or people that accept said belief as real (enough).
The only difference from a church and an individual in this regard is the quantity of people: one has many and one has, well, one.
In other words, a church's belief are no more real or legitimate than an individual's.
Some people's spaghetti that they make is better than the spaghetti of a chain restaurant's. Just because this chain has more chefs testing recipes doesn't mean it's better than the home cooks'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #4How can you possibly prove that? How can you know that? I can understand you believing this to be true but how can you know your claims here are true?nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:51 pm If you're not part of a church, you're following a god YOU made up. If you are part of a church, you're following a god the CHURCH made up.
Short of knowing everything that exists, in any universe or dimension that may exist, so that you can verify whether or not there is a God somewhere being pleased with what someone on earth is or is not doing, what you voice with such conviction is quite simply .... your belief.
JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #5Tam said:
I don't see the difference. If you are interpreting anything incorrectly, in the face of a greater whole, a Church for example, I don't see how you can distinguish that from imagination, nor do I see how such a deity could forgive you such a sin, since you will be personally wrong at least once - unless you believe your beliefs are 100% correct.
Which would probably be the sin of pride, just to make things worse.
[Replying to tam in post #2]Therefore, I am not making up a belief about God, or relying upon my own interpretation or perspective.
I don't see the difference. If you are interpreting anything incorrectly, in the face of a greater whole, a Church for example, I don't see how you can distinguish that from imagination, nor do I see how such a deity could forgive you such a sin, since you will be personally wrong at least once - unless you believe your beliefs are 100% correct.
Which would probably be the sin of pride, just to make things worse.
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #6[Replying to nobspeople in post #3]
I understand your point.
However there are several perspectives against it.
One, that "no one can understand God," (a frequent claim. This means that a group can better understand God. The modern interpretation of this would be "market statistics," or the delphi method. Where multiple people's understanding arrive at the truth.
As to following a truth the CHURCH made up, I can only concede the point. The inflection of the post is to contrast people who have their own, personal beliefs about God, which fly in the face of tradition.
And a tradition of people who, at least originally, could read the document-languages of the New and Old Testament's and have the hubris to claim their modern interpretations of God's words are better than those who, according to the religion, knew it.
I understand your point.
However there are several perspectives against it.
One, that "no one can understand God," (a frequent claim. This means that a group can better understand God. The modern interpretation of this would be "market statistics," or the delphi method. Where multiple people's understanding arrive at the truth.
As to following a truth the CHURCH made up, I can only concede the point. The inflection of the post is to contrast people who have their own, personal beliefs about God, which fly in the face of tradition.
And a tradition of people who, at least originally, could read the document-languages of the New and Old Testament's and have the hubris to claim their modern interpretations of God's words are better than those who, according to the religion, knew it.
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #7The question would be: where did the God in which someone believes originate? That is: the belief.
It could happen that someone wishes to invent a god, of course. But whether his belief in a made-up god becomes serious, I highly doubt.
Something serious would be that a person seeks the only living and true God. Can he find Him, what are the chances? Can someone be accepted by the true God if he serves him in his own personal way?
Then come these questions: does the Creator of the Universe want to make Himself known? How; in person, in a book? Does He have loyal worshipers on earth right now, who can testify about Him?
Would a person be willing to listen to the representatives of the true God, or is he just waiting for a special personal audience?
It could happen that someone wishes to invent a god, of course. But whether his belief in a made-up god becomes serious, I highly doubt.
Something serious would be that a person seeks the only living and true God. Can he find Him, what are the chances? Can someone be accepted by the true God if he serves him in his own personal way?
Then come these questions: does the Creator of the Universe want to make Himself known? How; in person, in a book? Does He have loyal worshipers on earth right now, who can testify about Him?
Would a person be willing to listen to the representatives of the true God, or is he just waiting for a special personal audience?
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #8[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #4]
How can one know one is following a version that a church made up?
That is easy.
There are many churches, with many religions, many perspectives and so on.
They all claim to be right.
There are newer ones that conflict older ones.
Only one, or one group with no conflicting guidance can be true.
Therefore, some of these must be made up.
Even though we all know yours is the correct one.
How can one know one is following a version that a church made up?
That is easy.
There are many churches, with many religions, many perspectives and so on.
They all claim to be right.
There are newer ones that conflict older ones.
Only one, or one group with no conflicting guidance can be true.
Therefore, some of these must be made up.
Even though we all know yours is the correct one.
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #9Peace to you,
As well, the God I know, the Father whom Christ reveals, is a lot more merciful than what you are imagining.
Why would the God and Father of Christ be mad at someone for looking at and listening to His Son, whom He loves (just as God said to do)? Even if that person make a mistake? As for forgiveness, well, Christ intercedes on behalf of His Bride, asks forgiveness for them. He even said, "Forgive and you will be forgiven. Be merciful and you will be shown mercy." So no, I am not worried about that at all. It is not about pride, and it is not because I think I am perfect or sinless and make no mistakes (I am a sinner and I do make mistakes), it is about faith - in Christ, His words, His Father and their promises.
As for religion... a) God never said 'listen to religion'; and b) we know for a fact that religions make mistakes, teach falsehood, have corruption in them... we know this for a fact because they teach things that contradict one another (as well as contradicting Christ), and we have seen the corruption when it gets brought to light (in the news or in one's own personal life). So we know for a fact that following a religion will lead a person into error, sometimes GREAT error. Religion does not save anyone.
Christ on the other hand is the Truth. He does not lie. He does not lead people into error. He is the Truth and Word and Image of His Father. And He is the One to whom His Father said to listen. God saves us through His Son. It is even in His name (JAH saves/savior of JAH).
Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
As stated, it is not about personal beliefs... it is about Christ and the truth He teaches/reveals of His Father.Willum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:14 pm Tam said:[Replying to tam in post #2]Therefore, I am not making up a belief about God, or relying upon my own interpretation or perspective.
I don't see the difference. If you are interpreting anything incorrectly, in the face of a greater whole, a Church for example, I don't see how you can distinguish that from imagination, nor do I see how such a deity could forgive you such a sin, since you will be personally wrong at least once - unless you believe your beliefs are 100% correct.
Which would probably be the sin of pride, just to make things worse.
As well, the God I know, the Father whom Christ reveals, is a lot more merciful than what you are imagining.
Why would the God and Father of Christ be mad at someone for looking at and listening to His Son, whom He loves (just as God said to do)? Even if that person make a mistake? As for forgiveness, well, Christ intercedes on behalf of His Bride, asks forgiveness for them. He even said, "Forgive and you will be forgiven. Be merciful and you will be shown mercy." So no, I am not worried about that at all. It is not about pride, and it is not because I think I am perfect or sinless and make no mistakes (I am a sinner and I do make mistakes), it is about faith - in Christ, His words, His Father and their promises.
As for religion... a) God never said 'listen to religion'; and b) we know for a fact that religions make mistakes, teach falsehood, have corruption in them... we know this for a fact because they teach things that contradict one another (as well as contradicting Christ), and we have seen the corruption when it gets brought to light (in the news or in one's own personal life). So we know for a fact that following a religion will lead a person into error, sometimes GREAT error. Religion does not save anyone.
Christ on the other hand is the Truth. He does not lie. He does not lead people into error. He is the Truth and Word and Image of His Father. And He is the One to whom His Father said to listen. God saves us through His Son. It is even in His name (JAH saves/savior of JAH).
Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: If you don't follow a/the Church...
Post #10[Replying to Willum in post #6]
1. No.
2. The Egyptians made up Gods long before anyone mispronounced YHVH.
3. I am aware of no God that fits the definition of living or true. Living things need to respirate, reproduce, eat, excrete, etc., to be living. God's characteristics usually proclaim he does not need to do these, the opposite of living. Of course this clause also dismisses "true," since it can't be both living and non-living.
4. Does the creator of the universe want to be known? Who cares? Perhaps it's relevant to another topic. Obviously, there are no gods with worshipers who can testify about them today, only mouth the inanities of every holy book (except yours, of course).
5. Who cares?
1. No.
2. The Egyptians made up Gods long before anyone mispronounced YHVH.
3. I am aware of no God that fits the definition of living or true. Living things need to respirate, reproduce, eat, excrete, etc., to be living. God's characteristics usually proclaim he does not need to do these, the opposite of living. Of course this clause also dismisses "true," since it can't be both living and non-living.
4. Does the creator of the universe want to be known? Who cares? Perhaps it's relevant to another topic. Obviously, there are no gods with worshipers who can testify about them today, only mouth the inanities of every holy book (except yours, of course).
5. Who cares?