If you don't follow a/the Church...

[Willum]

If you claim to believe in the Christian god, but do not follow or believe in the practices of any church, and have your own unique perspective of this God, how can you distinguish this from a god you have simply made up?

In other words, how can you know your beliefs about God are better than a churches?
In other words, how do you know, of all the perspectives and interpretations of God, your's are correct? Or that God is what you have imagined?
And if not, how do you justify inventing or imagining a God in defiance of the certainly greater wisdom of a congregation?

If you are wrong, is it not CERTAINLY blasphemy to invent details of God you have no basis for believing are true?

[Eloi]

Peace to you,

Tam said:

Therefore, I am not making up a belief about God, or relying upon my own interpretation or perspective.

[Replying to tam in post #2]

I don't see the difference. If you are interpreting anything incorrectly, in the face of a greater whole, a Church for example, I don't see how you can distinguish that from imagination, nor do I see how such a deity could forgive you such a sin, since you will be personally wrong at least once - unless you believe your beliefs are 100% correct.

Which would probably be the sin of pride, just to make things worse.

As stated, it is not about personal beliefs... it is about Christ and the truth He teaches/reveals of His Father.

As well, the God I know, the Father whom Christ reveals, is a lot more merciful than what you are imagining.

Why would the God and Father of Christ be mad at someone for looking at and listening to His Son, whom He loves (just as God said to do)? Even if that person make a mistake? As for forgiveness, well, Christ intercedes on behalf of His Bride, asks forgiveness for them. He even said, "Forgive and you will be forgiven. Be merciful and you will be shown mercy." So no, I am not worried about that at all. It is not about pride, and it is not because I think I am perfect or sinless and make no mistakes (I am a sinner and I do make mistakes), it is about faith - in Christ, His words, His Father and their promises.

As for religion... a) God never said 'listen to religion'; and b) we know for a fact that religions make mistakes, teach falsehood, have corruption in them... we know this for a fact because they teach things that contradict one another (as well as contradicting Christ), and we have seen the corruption when it gets brought to light (in the news or in one's own personal life). So we know for a fact that following a religion will lead a person into error, sometimes GREAT error. Religion does not save anyone.

Christ on the other hand is the Truth. He does not lie. He does not lead people into error. He is the Truth and Word and Image of His Father. And He is the One to whom His Father said to listen. God saves us through His Son. It is even in His name (JAH saves/savior of JAH).




Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The problem is: the same way people could invent their own god, they can invent their own Christ ... they can even invent one that is both.

[nobspeople]

If you're not part of a church, you're following a god YOU made up. If you are part of a church, you're following a god the CHURCH made up.

How can you possibly prove that? How can you know that? I can understand you believing this to be true but how can you know your claims here are true?

Short of knowing everything that exists, in any universe or dimension that may exist, so that you can verify whether or not there is a God somewhere being pleased with what someone on earth is or is not doing, what you voice with such conviction is quite simply .... your belief.

JW

I don't have to prove it to you. It's my belief.
Until you can prove your god isn't made up in your mind, my belief stands.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Tam said:

Therefore, I am not making up a belief about God, or relying upon my own interpretation or perspective.

[Replying to tam in post #2]

I don't see the difference. If you are interpreting anything incorrectly, in the face of a greater whole, a Church for example, I don't see how you can distinguish that from imagination, nor do I see how such a deity could forgive you such a sin, since you will be personally wrong at least once - unless you believe your beliefs are 100% correct.

Which would probably be the sin of pride, just to make things worse.

As stated, it is not about personal beliefs... it is about Christ and the truth He teaches/reveals of His Father.

As well, the God I know, the Father whom Christ reveals, is a lot more merciful than what you are imagining.

Why would the God and Father of Christ be mad at someone for looking at and listening to His Son, whom He loves (just as God said to do)? Even if that person make a mistake? As for forgiveness, well, Christ intercedes on behalf of His Bride, asks forgiveness for them. He even said, "Forgive and you will be forgiven. Be merciful and you will be shown mercy." So no, I am not worried about that at all. It is not about pride, and it is not because I think I am perfect or sinless and make no mistakes (I am a sinner and I do make mistakes), it is about faith - in Christ, His words, His Father and their promises.

As for religion... a) God never said 'listen to religion'; and b) we know for a fact that religions make mistakes, teach falsehood, have corruption in them... we know this for a fact because they teach things that contradict one another (as well as contradicting Christ), and we have seen the corruption when it gets brought to light (in the news or in one's own personal life). So we know for a fact that following a religion will lead a person into error, sometimes GREAT error. Religion does not save anyone.

Christ on the other hand is the Truth. He does not lie. He does not lead people into error. He is the Truth and Word and Image of His Father. And He is the One to whom His Father said to listen. God saves us through His Son. It is even in His name (JAH saves/savior of JAH).




Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The problem is: the same way people could invent their own god, they can invent their own Christ ... they can even invent one that is both.

They could, as can religion... but that's really only an issue for a person lacking faith. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?


Peace again!

[Eloi]

The only way that the God that someone believes in is the God that the Bible and Jesus teach about, is by proving with the Bible itself that it is Him, in the way that it is revealed to us, without another person being able to refute it reasonably, with the Bible itself.

[Willum]

[Replying to tam in post #9]

You ask a great deal of questions, which do not defend your point.

I believe there are verses in the Bible about the kind of beliefs you are describing.
They say, no matter how well intentioned, these people follow Satan, and not the true God, while deluding themselves into (false) righteousness in the eyes of God.

Why would the God and Father of Christ be mad at someone for looking at and listening to His Son, whom He loves (just as God said to do)?

Because, by following their own path, they are deluding themselves.

As for religion... a) God never said 'listen to religion'; and b) we know for a fact that religions make mistakes, teach falsehood, have corruption in them...

But how is it not the worse kind of pride to believe one person knows better than a congregation? For is it not said (Matt 18:20) "whenever two or more are gathered..." that God is with them, and should we not understand, that God is guiding them as well?

How can an individual be anything but guided by God's adversaries, relying on their own reasoning?
They cannot.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #4]

How can one know one is following a version that a church made up?

That is easy.
There are many churches, with many religions, many perspectives and so on.
They all claim to be right.
There are newer ones that conflict older ones.
Only one, or one group with no conflicting guidance can be true.

Therefore, some of these must be made up.
Even though we all know yours is the correct one.Gerv.png

So what?! Only one of them might have to be true, how does having so many prove they are all wrong?

[Eloi]

Peace to you,

The problem is: the same way people could invent their own god, they can invent their own Christ ... they can even invent one that is both.

They could, as can religion... but that's really only an issue for a person lacking faith. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?


Peace again!

Exactly what I said: the thread is about if the god in which someone believes is the true God (of the Bible) ... and you talked about Jesus (kind of a sermon) ... BUT is the "christ" you interpreted when you read about him the real one, or just the idea you made up about him?

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

So what?! Only one of them might have to be true, how does having so many prove they are all wrong?

That you need to ask me that, tells me that you understand, at a deep level that you know it is likely your beliefs are faulty.

Think about the converse, and you could assert a conviction, rather than ask your question.

Good talk.

[tam]

Peace to you,

The problem is: the same way people could invent their own god, they can invent their own Christ ... they can even invent one that is both.

They could, as can religion... but that's really only an issue for a person lacking faith. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?


Peace again!

Exactly what I said: the thread is about if the god in which someone believes is the true God (of the Bible) ... and you talked about Jesus (kind of a sermon) ... BUT is the "christ" you interpreted when you read about him the real one, or just the idea you made up about him?

I'm not interpreting, and Christ is more than a person you can read about. He is alive. He is the LIVING Word of God, who calls His sheep by name, who lives and who speaks. Even the bible attests to that. His sheep hear/listen to His voice (as He said, as even the bible attests to).

And yes I talked about Christ (Jaheshua). Of course I did. In a question about how do you know you know God and aren't making Him up... of course the answer must be Christ. He is the Truth, the Word, the Image of His Father. If we know Christ, then we know His Father as well. If we see Christ, we see His Father as well. Is there something false in what I said? If so, point it out. If nothing false, why take issue with it?

Did Christ say, "If you know the bible, then you know my Father as well"?

Or did He say, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known ME, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him." See also John 8:19.

And,

No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

So what?! Only one of them might have to be true, how does having so many prove they are all wrong?

That you need to ask me that, tells me that you understand, at a deep level that you know it is likely your beliefs are faulty.

Think about the converse, and you could assert a conviction, rather than ask your question.

Good talk.

This is a debate forum so asking questions and challenging assertions are part of good form. You are free, as you have done here, to refain from responding to a question should that be your good pleasure but it is curious to me you choose to evade what is a simple enough point: namely, multiple falsehoods/errors or untruths do not negate the existence of truth.



JW