Knowing christ/god

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nobspeople
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Knowing christ/god

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Relatively recently, in another thread, there's been talk about rather or not one can 'know christ/god'. An accusation have been 'you don't understand because you don't have faith', among others. I don't think that's the case. I think people do know how one can 'know christ/god': by making it up in their minds. :dizzy:

I can know Mr. Hubblefluff personally.
How? Because I made him up in my mind.
POOF there he is!!!
This is how people 'know christ/god', because they do so with their mind.
And all of that is perfectly fine so long as these 'knowers' admit to that. Otherwise, they're lying not only to others, but to themselves.
How do I know this?
1) Been there done that bought the tee shirt (thankfully I kept the receipt for a full refund :ok: )
2) This 'made up 'knowing'' would help in explaining why there are SO MANY different believers, believing in the same god but having different views of what it means/wants/says (ie different sects of the same chosen belief system)
3) No one (let me reiterate that: NO ONE) has been able, for centuries, to show god is real in ANY facet past their individual wants, needs and desires. No one.

For discussion:
Prove me wrong. Show a way that you KNOW and can demonstrate that not only god is real, but you know (not believe, not believe in, not accept, not have faith in, or any other none sensical retort) - you KNOW god is real and you know this supreme being other than from within your own mind.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:38 pm

This is how people 'know christ/god', because they do so with their mind.... How do I know this?
1) Been there done that bought the tee shirt (thankfully I kept the receipt for a full refund :ok: )


For discussion:
Prove me wrong. Show a way that you KNOW and can demonstrate that not only god is real, but you know (not believe, not believe in, not accept, not have faith in, or any other none sensical retort) - you KNOW god is real and you know this supreme being other than from within your own mind.

So let me get this straight, your personal experience is enough proof for you to claim to know what every religious person has or has not experienced.

But THEIR personal experience proves nothing. Is that how it goes?


Clarification appreciated,


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

nobspeople
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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #3

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:43 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:38 pm

This is how people 'know christ/god', because they do so with their mind.... How do I know this?
1) Been there done that bought the tee shirt (thankfully I kept the receipt for a full refund :ok: )


For discussion:
Prove me wrong. Show a way that you KNOW and can demonstrate that not only god is real, but you know (not believe, not believe in, not accept, not have faith in, or any other none sensical retort) - you KNOW god is real and you know this supreme being other than from within your own mind.

So let me get this straight, your personal experience is enough proof for you to claim to know what every religious person has or has not experienced.

But THEIR personal experience proves nothing. Is that how it goes?


Clarification appreciated,


JW

:D That's WAY too simple (misguided?) of a way of seeing it.

Why should your opinion proving something to you, carry any more weight than mine proving something to me or vice versa?
You see, my opinion doesn't depend on if you or anyone else accepts it, just like yours doesn't depend on if I accept it or not.
Please do try to keep up.

To your other point, I never said 'it proves nothing' or has 'never experienced' this or that (I, too, have experienced things - some things that may blow your mind).
What is DOES prove, to me, is these believers are fooling themselves (which is exceptionally easy to do).

That said, unlike some believers (I suspect, you may fall into this category based on previous 'conversations' with you), I'm willing to change my opinion based on experience (like I did when I shunned this belief system).

See how that all works?

:applaud:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:38 pm

You see, my opinion doesn't depend on if you or anyone else accepts it, just like yours doesn't depend on if I accept it or not. ...I, too, have experienced things - some things that may blow your mind). What is DOES prove, to me, is these believers are fooling themselves (which is exceptionally easy to do).
Okay well, as you say "...my opinion doesn't depend on if you or anyone else accepts it " ...

Thanks for the clarification, I'll leave some links as to why I believe in God but choose not to share intimate details about my personal relationship with him which are NOT for a public forum.

Enjoy your thread.






JW



To learn more please go to other posts related to...

TRUTH , GOD and ... EVOLUTION
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #5

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:44 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:38 pm

You see, my opinion doesn't depend on if you or anyone else accepts it, just like yours doesn't depend on if I accept it or not. ...I, too, have experienced things - some things that may blow your mind). What is DOES prove, to me, is these believers are fooling themselves (which is exceptionally easy to do).
Okay well, as you say "...my opinion doesn't depend on if you or anyone else accepts it " ...

Thanks for the clarification, I'll leave some links as to why I believe in God but choose not to share intimate details about my personal relationship with him which are but for a public forum.

Enjoy your thread.






JW



To learn more please go to other posts related to...

TRUTH , GOD and ... EVOLUTION
No one said you can't believe. Believe in the yellow pant god of Zimba for all I care.
If your belief is enough for you to KNOW, then mine should be enough for me to KNOW, right?
Right
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #6

Post by TRANSPONDER »

That looked like good old Running away (while tossing a few religious tracts in our faces as he flees). And declaring Faith and affirming Belief is fine as it the choice, but it isn't a reason.

"Why do you believe?"

I don't do that one (rather, I do 'These are good reasons NOT to Believe"). But I know a man who has pursued the 'Why do you believe?' route and found that 'Knowing God' (topic :) ) Aka personal experience adds up to Nothing at all. Long ago I knew the voice in my head was me, and 'God' (because He hates the same people the believer does, and when the Believer changes their Beliefs, God changes His mind as well) is just the self -opinion of the believer inflated to Celestial level and worshipped.

Citing again the long but Mustwatch 'Losing Faith' (Theramin trees) set out how the personal experiences added up to nothing of substance. Merely they'd been taught how to fool themselves. The protagonist manned up to Hellthreat, which is the big stick that frightens the believer into submission and he saw the absurdity of it and discarded it. And eventually found the objective ;) basis of Belief.

"Faith is Good".

The answer, No. It isn't. This persistent and pernicious meme that having Faith is somehow moral, let alone valid has got to go, along with the idea that stubborn refusal to be reasonable iis somehow admirable and reasonable discussion is somehow weak.

"How little man Himself has changed" (Khan - Startrek). We still not have recognized the need for critical thinking and logic, let alone teaching it in Class, and never mind insisting that our elected leaders use that instead of all the dirty tricks of apologetics.

But enough of the rant :D 'What is knowing God?' it is self delusion and you may sell your Disney shares before they become worthless and invest in that. God is indeed made (and remade at need) in man's own image. and (to get back to where I diverged O:) ) if I haven't found my head empty of the Voice, some have said "I prayed for God to answer me and there was nothing" or 'It was like going into a room, switching on the light and finding it was empty" I've never been there myself, but I know a man who has.

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:22 am
If your belief is enough for you to KNOW, then mine should be enough for me to KNOW, right?
Right
I have always said that I am talking about my beliefs. All I know is what *I* have experienced, the restons what'K BELIEEVE to be true. You however have claimed to know about other people's experience which (when it comes to the supernatural ) is quite frankly impossible - unless that is, you know everything.

All either of us can say, when it comes to somebody else's is what we believe. You believe one thing; I believe another. We are both "believers" but in different things.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:39 am
nobspeople wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:22 am
If your belief is enough for you to KNOW, then mine should be enough for me to KNOW, right?
Right
I have always said that I am talking about my beliefs. All I know is what *I* have experienced, the restons what'K BELIEEVE to be true. You however have claimed to know about other people's experience which (when it comes to the supernatural ) is quite frankly impossible - unless that is, you know everything.

All either of us can say, when it comes to somebody else's is what we believe. You believe one thing; I believe another. We are both "believers" but in different things.
Then you have no dog in this fight and your participation is moot outside the need to be a part of it.
That said, if one (you, Amber over there, Tommy of here, whomever) says I KNOW god is real, I can likewise say I KNOW YOU'RE IMAGINING IT with equal fervor and relevance. Which is the point being made.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:55 am
That said, if one (you, Amber over there, Tommy of here, whomever) says I KNOW god is real, I can likewise say I KNOW YOU'RE IMAGINING IT with equal fervor and relevance. Which is the point being made.

I believe I KNOW God is real because of my experience of Him. I make no assumptions about other people's experience. You can never know my experience is imaginary; you can only express your belief that it is.

Are we agreed?



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Knowing christ/god

Post #10

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:39 pm
nobspeople wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:55 am
That said, if one (you, Amber over there, Tommy of here, whomever) says I KNOW god is real, I can likewise say I KNOW YOU'RE IMAGINING IT with equal fervor and relevance. Which is the point being made.

I believe I KNOW God is real because of my experience of Him. I make no assumptions about other people's experience. You can never know my experience is imaginary; you can only express your belief that it is.

Are we agreed?



JW
I believe I know your belief is imaginary just like you believe you know your god is real.
If you were to say you know your god is real then I would say I know your god is imaginary.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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