One way to determine a lie

Argue for and against Christianity

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Willum
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One way to determine a lie

Post #1

Post by Willum »

So one way to determine a lie is to propose a obviously false hypothesis that BETTER fits the data.

Please evaluate and critique the following statement, fun is allowed, but be clear if it is an ironic or serious statement:

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Re: One way to determine a lie

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

Willum wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:16 am So one way to determine a lie is to propose a obviously false hypothesis that BETTER fits the data.

Please evaluate and critique the following statement, fun is allowed, but be clear if it is an ironic or serious statement:
For a long time, I wondered 'what if what we think is good isn't and bad prevailed? How would we even know we're being told a lie?"
In other words, what if god is really bad, defeated (for lack of a better term) satan (which is good) and lied to everyone saying the opposite is true? We wouldn't know simply if bad had more power than good.
It's as if we were told cold feels grey and warm feels purple - we just accept that as true because, well, that's what we were told from the beginning!

I look forward to reading more in this thread. :approve:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Willum
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Re: One way to determine a lie

Post #3

Post by Willum »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #2]
I look forward to reading more in this thread.
If anyone else has the fortitude to make an answer...

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Re: One way to determine a lie

Post #4

Post by Miles »

Willum wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:30 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #2]
I look forward to reading more in this thread.
If anyone else has the fortitude to make an answer...
Or cares. Image


.

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Re: One way to determine a lie

Post #5

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Or wants to address the idea, indeed. But it does make a point. And it relates in a way to the leap of Faith: a creator has of course to be Biblegod. All other gods being dismissed out of hand because the ones making the argument have be raised to consider the Bible and no other religion or their gods.

The Creator is as likely to be Allah or Shiva as Jehovah. That's why 'Who made everything, then?' isn't actually a relevant or useful apologetic. As I have said, it comes down to - not only the Bible, but the Gospels, and specifically the validity of the resurrection -story. If that is untrue, then Christianity collapses.

Which segues quite nicely into the argument here, because a pal of mine wrote that one thing that bothered him about the resurrection was the marks of Crucifixion. Why would Jesus (in his undamaged body, which is what all those raised at the last Days would surely have, as you can't have mangled crash victims or burned corpses stood up for judgement) bear the marks of crucifixion? Obviously because it would look fishy if he didn't. The disciples would wonder whether that really was Jesus. After all, both Mary and Cleophas didn't recognise him at first. This led to the Didymus -theory and the idea of a twin brother posing as Jesus.

There are objections to that (quite apart from mine that the whole bunch of discrepant tales were just made up) but the Believer reaction would be (I guess) to dismiss it, out of hand. On what grounds? Simply because it isn't what they have been taught.

It is indeed very tempting to cling to what we have been taught and get all denialist when a new theory comes along, and we've seen it even in science, never mind popular culture. And to have it conflicting with Religious Dogma runs up against denial without even thinking about it. Religion capitalises on the Faithful not knowing and not wanting to know.

"Dear great Pumpkin; if you aren't real, don't tell me; I don't want to know." Charles Schultz must have been aware that Linus' minority - Faith of the Great Pumpkin was very much a metaphor for any and all religions.

So suppose the Flood was real, and already it is not total and a lot of people survive to tell and retell their own versions; why is the Genesis - version considered to be the 'True' one? Why, for that matter, when the Babylonian version apparently dates back to Sumer through a couple of versions, would anyone propose that the account in the Bible (which has no record before 600 BC with the silver scroll) was the original from which far less sophisticated versions derived? The far more probable story is that the later -attested and more sophisticated Bible - version derived from the Sumerian.

Which means that if anyone did the Flood, it was the gods of Sumer, not the tribal god of the later -appearing Hebrews.

Dismissed out of hand, I would bet and simply because all of us - not just the believers - have been taught that version of the story and no other.

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Re: One way to determine a lie

Post #6

Post by Purple Knight »

It's not so much important whether this is actually true about Noah.

What's more important is that we can't determine whether it is true or not. It even fits the lore, because God is always testing and testing and testing people. He could have let Satan win and let Satan's influence write the Bible and fill it with horrors to see how people would react. I argue that lorewise, it would have happened much earlier, to Abraham when he chose to sacrifice his son. Here begins where "God" starts telling us to do awful things perhaps just to see if we'll do them.

In a normal situation, when we can't determine something, a rational person bides his time, keeps his distance, and looks for evidence.

No problem, right? Because being rational doesn't preclude Christianity.

Oh yes it does, because a rational person, at this stage where we can't determine truth and especially if a lot is at stake... if told to go against rationality and simply trust somebody, he says no.

It all makes much better sense if something like that Noah thing is true.

If God wants robots, why provide us with consciences? If it's so we can prove our will and turn against our nature and towards righteousness, you absolutely do have to prove to me, with Reason, that what you are asking me to do is righteous. Otherwise it's just turning away from one animal drive toward another. I'm still using feelings alone to choose.

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Re: One way to determine a lie

Post #7

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #6]
because a rational person, at this stage where we can't determine truth and especially if a lot is at stake... if told to go against rationality and simply trust somebody, he says no.
That is SO important. But, it must be said, little to nothing about christianity is 'rational'. Resurrections? 'Everything' created in a week? A talking and burning bush that's not consumed? Virgin birth? Driving out of demons into pigs? Two people creating a race of several billion? The list is almost endless and irrational. So we shouldn't be surprised if someone (aka a believer) doesn't take the rational approach. Christianity is about 'feel' and 'faith' and 'emotion', none of those things can be seen as fully rational.
If God wants robots, why provide us with consciences? If it's so we can prove our will and turn against our nature and towards righteousness, you absolutely do have to prove to me, with Reason, that what you are asking me to do is righteous.
Ironically, amen. :thanks:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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