A matter of faith and pride

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Willum
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A matter of faith and pride

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Theists often brag about their faith, based on what, to an impartial observer, is a 3rd century comic.*
Their faith can override observation, even science - depending on the myth, story or fable.

So the question is this:
If you yourself acknowledge you have no knowledge but faith in these stories, and you yourself can not distinguish the Bible from other myths (except by personal opinion or upbringing), why should you expect your opinions to be taken seriously?



* = Indeed, it can be shown many, if not all Bible story were reproduced from other people’s fairytales, childrens’ stories, myth or religion.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #21

Post by Willum »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #20]

You could let them try.
They know they can’t.

“I believe in fairytales, and that faith makes me strong!”

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #22

Post by theophile »

Willum wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:01 pm [Replying to theophile in post #14]

At this point your avoiding the topic is just amusing.

I suppose you can put forward no reason why someone who can’t distinguish their holy book from comic book should have respect, and therefore we should respect such people as our intuition dictates.
What have I avoided? You want reasons why the bible is different from some generic / made-up 3rd century comic book? Helps to know what specific comic book we're talking about to get to substantive differences... Otherwise not quite sure what you're looking for... i.e., the bible isn't graphic-based like a comic book? ...

Again, there is no necessary reason from an ideology perspective that the bible and a comic book need be different. I have no problem with a comic book that uses completely different setting, characters, and terms, to convey the same ideology. (Per before, the bible doesn't have a monopoly on moral truth.) But chances are, they will differ on that front (but again, need specifics to make any points in that direction).

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #23

Post by TRANSPONDER »

nobspeople wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:43 am [Replying to Willum in post #1]

The problem you'll likely run into here is with this sentence:
"...you yourself can not distinguish the Bible from other myths (except by personal opinion or upbringing)..."
Christians are arrogant in the sense that they think they can tell the difference. How many believers on this site, in reference to cults, have said something akin to "I can tell the real messiah" or "cult leader XYZ can't fool me/REAL christians"?*
So I doubt you'll get any honest replies from christians as they believe they're mentally advanced more than the average person due to their personal 'walk with christ'. Faith seems to increase pride and promote arrogance while discounting the ability to be humble.
But we shall see...


*To be fair, this is something that we see in most all people regardless of their belief, but as your question was directed towards believers, the response is as well.
I think that's right. Cult -think (which is akin to theist -think) seems to have a Faith in their rightness. And, while Christian apologetics (I'm sure) believes that God is giving them all the right answers , the same mechanism applies to everything else. Even where a god is not involved. Faith and adoration for a cult, religious or political leader. stout battling for a theory, a team or even a town ( I was frankly appalled to see a violent feud between my city and the next for no good reason that I could detect other than Tribalism.

It's the same with musical partiality, whether one likes Nazcar or Formula 1, Star Wars or Star Trek. Sometimes one thinks that the civil war is what matters - the reason is unimportant. But religious aside and given that I see 'God' as simply their own opinions raised to Cosmic/dive level, I see personal self Justification, self confidence and a supposed rank within the tribe and the Norms of the tribe meaning that those who do not conform get banished. As is was in the stone age, so it is in the 21st c.

Is it any wonder that I'm not surprised that even the religion may suffer knockback and discredit because what is all important is that the apologist should never admit that they got it wrong. Personal pride or belief in a God? I think they are the same, and I wouldn't like to be which came first.

Next discussion - Martyrdom and Victimisation in a Tribal context. Bring your own pitchforks, stay - alight - in - studio - rain torches and marshmallows.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #24

Post by Eloi »

All people on earth live by putting faith in others in some way. Everyone assumes that humans traveled to the moon only because they were shown a video of it being so; They believe that the earth is round because others told them, but we have never gone up to check any of that. And just like that, everyone believes what they've been told in schools, on the news, etc. That's putting faith in man... and it's normal.

Putting faith in the Scriptures is also normal, because they prove to be true in so many ways, much more so than men. Our trust in the Scriptures is strengthened by the real effect that trust has in our lives; for example, their advice has been shown to be from a source wiser than humans, and applying it has given us better results than following any human.

Jehovah's Witnesses of all the earth, for example, are the only international community that teaches obedience to the rulers, and that even so, stays away from conflicts and human divisions of all kinds. If all humans would strive to apply biblical principles like Jehovah's Witnesses, many human problems would cease to exist.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #25

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Eloi in post #24]

How is putting faith in something that you can’t distinguish from a fairytale, normal now?

I can’t wait to hear this one!

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #26

Post by Eloi »

Willum wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:39 am [Replying to Eloi in post #24]

How is putting faith in something that you can’t distinguish from a fairytale, normal now?

I can’t wait to hear this one!
Well, then you believe in fairytales too.

Is not believing that human brain grew in size because apes learned how to cook, transforming from ape to human, believing a fairytale too?

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #27

Post by TRANSPONDER »

That is a fair point or at least one that has to be addressed. And the basis is - do we trust the pronouncements of science or not? And if not, why not? The fact is that science has answered so many questions and done so much that we trust to work every day, that it seems a bit perverse, wouldn't you say? to suddenly assert that Faith claims without support never mind having been called ever more into doubt over the past 100 years, despite efforts of the cults and faiths to try to cast their Faith -claims assertions and Hypotheses as scientific just in hopes that some scientific credibility will wash off onto their looney cult or dubious religion.

Now, I have looked at a lot of these claims including doubts about the Moon landing. Initially, there were some fair questions that deserved an answer, and they got the answers - though more from an episode of Mythbusters than from NASA which did surprisingly poor counters. What made it clear that we (humans) HAD got to the Moon were the laser reflectors left there that are still being used to measure the distance of the moon.

Mind, acquaintance with witness statement analysis made me wonder whether later missions were the ones that landed but that first one didn't, even though they may have gone around the moon but didn't land. Buzz Aldrin knew what the Moon looked like from space but seemed vague about what it was like to be ON the moon. Yet it seems the landing site has been photographed from space and the point is that it is debate and evidence not Faith that REALLY validates the moon landings, even though a lot of Trust is invested in NASA (science).

I'm like this - critical thinking, rationalism and pointy eared logic is like this about everything. True Believers can't get it that it isn't based on buying into a Faith and fighting for it to the death, but going with the best evidence, even admitting that I was wrong before.

"Science is always getting it wrong" "science is always changing its' mind". Yes, because it is not hanging onto dogma and wants to be given new information. It is following evidence and that's why we can (and do) trust it more than we trust a Dogma that is maintained with Faith even when all the evidence is against it.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #28

Post by Eloi »

Nice. But human science is still human.
Humans won't solve our problems; our Creator will.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #29

Post by TRANSPONDER »

P.s I should have quoted this.
Eloi wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:24 am All people on earth live by putting faith in others in some way. Everyone assumes that humans traveled to the moon only because they were shown a video of it being so; They believe that the earth is round because others told them, but we have never gone up to check any of that. And just like that, everyone believes what they've been told in schools, on the news, etc. That's putting faith in man... and it's normal.

Putting faith in the Scriptures is also normal, because they prove to be true in so many ways, much more so than men. Our trust in the Scriptures is strengthened by the real effect that trust has in our lives; for example, their advice has been shown to be from a source wiser than humans, and applying it has given us better results than following any human.

Jehovah's Witnesses of all the earth, for example, are the only international community that teaches obedience to the rulers, and that even so, stays away from conflicts and human divisions of all kinds. If all humans would strive to apply biblical principles like Jehovah's Witnesses, many human problems would cease to exist.
I only addressed the validity of science and lack of valid evidence for religion - any religion.

It almost need not be said that the assertion that the truth of scripture manifests in their life is (on all evidence) self delusion and certainly should not be trusted.

I won't even get into the trumpeting of the virtues of any authoritarian and life - denying little cult other than to say, if it's Christian, it's wrong. Trust me, I'm an atheist.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #30

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Eloi wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 11:12 am Nice. But human science is still human.
Humans won't solve our problems; our Creator will.
Hasn't done so in the past, only made things worse. Everything that you enjoy, everything that you use and rely on, everything that gives you a 1st world lifestyle that you wallow in comes from science and none of it from any religion or its' god. What has religion given us but lies, science denial, division, Holy wars, prejudice and Mother Theresa and Pope Ratzinger. Nice long record, and still avoiding being put in the dock, never mind being excused taxes.

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