A matter of faith and pride

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Willum
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A matter of faith and pride

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Theists often brag about their faith, based on what, to an impartial observer, is a 3rd century comic.*
Their faith can override observation, even science - depending on the myth, story or fable.

So the question is this:
If you yourself acknowledge you have no knowledge but faith in these stories, and you yourself can not distinguish the Bible from other myths (except by personal opinion or upbringing), why should you expect your opinions to be taken seriously?



* = Indeed, it can be shown many, if not all Bible story were reproduced from other people’s fairytales, childrens’ stories, myth or religion.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #2

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I should really leave that to the Believers to answer, but what sort of answer could we expect, after all?

But understanding the opposition is a requirement and I think I understand the Theist mindset.

It's based on Faith, because it is that which reverses the burden of proof. They maintain the Bible claims and all they have to do is dismiss the arguments of the atheists and they win. That's why they hate the burden of proof being on them, especially if the Bible is subject to so much doubt that it cannot be credited as reliable and they have to argue a case for it.

If I can refer to the discussion about the Hyksos incorporating (if not being) the Hebrews of the Exodus, the 'evidence' presented amounted to nothing, obviously (like evidence of brickmaking in Egypt) or that cylinder seal interpreted by a Jewish apologist as representing the 12 tribes of Israel which sorta worked for a couple of tribes and then fell apart pretty much. In other words almost nothing and from my point of view does nothing to prop up the Exodus- story.

But one who has Faith in the Exodus will see that it supports a narrative that is credited on Faith. So Faith is the mindset to start with.

Come to think of it, that's really everything. It even accounts for the accusations dished out to smear atheists, like science being a religion. It isn't; no more than using the rules of logic, physics, mathematics, medicine or anything else to do a job correctly makes it a 'Religion' or Dogma. This Faith -based mindset explains why they project their own mindset on the atheists, scientists and Bible critics. Though it doesn't explain why this religious Faith suddenly becomes a bad thing when atheists do it.

But yes :) that's another mindset. We are Good (so they think); they (infidels) are bad; and I'm reminded of Tolkien (a Catholic) having the elves react oddly to a question about whether the cloaks they handed out were 'Magical'. 'Magic' is a term that is also applied to the deceits of the Enemy. In other words, when they do it, it's fine. When Sauron does it, it's wrong. And the same with propaganda. And I don't need to point a finger too unwaveringly at Other aspects of Human life to see where doing evil is fine because they are on the right side and the other side doing it or even accusing them of doing it is evil because they are the wrong side.

Christianity does indeed have an implacably biased mindset that considers any evils justified if it enables them to win, and of course they live in terror of atheists getting any power as they are convinced we'd do the same to them.

For the record, we wouldn't O:) We would allow people to practice whatever religion they wanted (within the law) and all the requirement would be that they keep it in their places of worship (and homes...can't help that :( ) and out of education, politics, and ..oh yes...science. And they'd pay taxes on religious business, like any other.

Here endeth the midterm manifesto, without the expectation of a landslide of votes for the atheist candidate.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #3

Post by theophile »

Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:07 pm Theists often brag about their faith, based on what, to an impartial observer, is a 3rd century comic.*
Their faith can override observation, even science - depending on the myth, story or fable.

So the question is this:
If you yourself acknowledge you have no knowledge but faith in these stories, and you yourself can not distinguish the Bible from other myths (except by personal opinion or upbringing), why should you expect your opinions to be taken seriously?



* = Indeed, it can be shown many, if not all Bible story were reproduced from other people’s fairytales, childrens’ stories, myth or religion.
Faith ought not be intellectual acceptance that the bible is, say, historical truth. Or scientific even, at least in the the sense of the hard sciences as often compared. Biblical stories are more on the side of the softer sciences like moral and political science. Economics even. And we should look at them from these vantages if we want to assess their truth value.

So to your question I say sure, the stories are false from certain perspectives. But perhaps they will not be from others. And that these other aspects are perhaps much more important. So who cares?

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #4

Post by Willum »

And to repeat/reiterate the question.

Why should the opinion of someone who flies faith in the face of observation, reason - even science, be taken seriously?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #5

Post by theophile »

Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:29 pm And to repeat/reiterate the question.

Why should the opinion of someone who flies faith in the face of observation, reason - even science, be taken seriously?
So is your question whether we should take narrow-minded people who seek no truth whatsoever seriously? Of course we shouldn't. But then, what's the point of the question? Answer seems obvious.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #6

Post by TRANSPONDER »

theophile wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:25 pm
Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:07 pm Theists often brag about their faith, based on what, to an impartial observer, is a 3rd century comic.*
Their faith can override observation, even science - depending on the myth, story or fable.

So the question is this:
If you yourself acknowledge you have no knowledge but faith in these stories, and you yourself can not distinguish the Bible from other myths (except by personal opinion or upbringing), why should you expect your opinions to be taken seriously?



* = Indeed, it can be shown many, if not all Bible story were reproduced from other people’s fairytales, childrens’ stories, myth or religion.
Faith ought not be intellectual acceptance that the bible is, say, historical truth. Or scientific even, at least in the the sense of the hard sciences as often compared. Biblical stories are more on the side of the softer sciences like moral and political science. Economics even. And we should look at them from these vantages if we want to assess their truth value.

So to your question I say sure, the stories are false from certain perspectives. But perhaps they will not be from others. And that these other aspects are perhaps much more important. So who cares?
That's fine so far as it goes. Rather like cafeteria Christianity. I have to say that it is a bit evasive, and one has a grudging admiration for those Inerrantists who would rather break than bend, but the Cafeteria Christians say that they are choosing the Good and eschewing the Evil. Which is rather where you came in.

I say that the honest approach would be to say 'Ok, the Bible is no more valid than any other book'. That is where you came in, too. You are arguing (effectively) that it might not be true but it can have some good ideas, lessons and advice.

To which I say: "And it might not". It has to be stripped of all residual credit and evaluated like any other book that seeks to teach life lessons. And I need hardly add that it is human moral codes and human logical reasoning that will apply as 'God's logic' and God's commandments are as invalid as the supposed factual events in a book that has just been declared unreliable, if I got you correctly.

Bear in mind that the much - vaunted Golden Rule is not Patented by Christianity but borrowed from human basic morality - Reciprocity. And as I recall, it is actually reversed in meaning to make it a pestilential evangelists' charter ("If I were in your shoes, I'd want you to convert me." effectively) and we all know how devoutly followed is the exhortation to give your assailant mugger your mobile 'phone, car keys, shirt, tie and boxer shorts, or to give all you have to the poor and follow Jesus.

Bad advice dudes and they know it. Never mind the one about helping out your neighbour pleases God more than going to church. ;) Sure you know it, but maybe it didn't sink in what it actually said.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #7

Post by Willum »

[Replying to theophile in post #5]

No, I am asking why we should take faith in lieu of truth-seeking, seriously.

“I have faith in a being less likely than Santa, and ignore science and reality to do so! Take me seriously!”

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

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Post by theophile »

Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:23 pm [Replying to theophile in post #5]

No, I am asking why we should take faith in lieu of truth-seeking, seriously.

“I have faith in a being less likely than Santa, and ignore science and reality to do so! Take me seriously!”
Back to my original point, I think you're reducing faith to something it's not. i.e., to intellectual assent that the biblical stories are absolute fact, and override history, science, etc. As such, you oppose faith to 'truth-seeking', as if the two are mutually exclusive. But they are not. Biblical stories can be false, say, from a historic perspective, but true from a moral perspective. We need to parse it out and seek truth (/their truth value) across domains.

I have no problem saying, for example, that the flood never happened and Noah never existed. But that this story (as depicted) nevertheless offers valuable truth that is worthy of intellectual consideration and perhaps even assent.

Now, are there other 'believers' who do what you say? Whose faith is void of truth-seeking and who claim the stories are absolute fact? Of course there are, but that brings me back to my previous comment. Of course we shouldn't take such ones seriously. (Who would argue otherwise?)

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #9

Post by theophile »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:16 pm
theophile wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:25 pm
Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:07 pm Theists often brag about their faith, based on what, to an impartial observer, is a 3rd century comic.*
Their faith can override observation, even science - depending on the myth, story or fable.

So the question is this:
If you yourself acknowledge you have no knowledge but faith in these stories, and you yourself can not distinguish the Bible from other myths (except by personal opinion or upbringing), why should you expect your opinions to be taken seriously?



* = Indeed, it can be shown many, if not all Bible story were reproduced from other people’s fairytales, childrens’ stories, myth or religion.
Faith ought not be intellectual acceptance that the bible is, say, historical truth. Or scientific even, at least in the the sense of the hard sciences as often compared. Biblical stories are more on the side of the softer sciences like moral and political science. Economics even. And we should look at them from these vantages if we want to assess their truth value.

So to your question I say sure, the stories are false from certain perspectives. But perhaps they will not be from others. And that these other aspects are perhaps much more important. So who cares?
That's fine so far as it goes. Rather like cafeteria Christianity. I have to say that it is a bit evasive, and one has a grudging admiration for those Inerrantists who would rather break than bend, but the Cafeteria Christians say that they are choosing the Good and eschewing the Evil. Which is rather where you came in.

I say that the honest approach would be to say 'Ok, the Bible is no more valid than any other book'. That is where you came in, too. You are arguing (effectively) that it might not be true but it can have some good ideas, lessons and advice.

To which I say: "And it might not". It has to be stripped of all residual credit and evaluated like any other book that seeks to teach life lessons. And I need hardly add that it is human moral codes and human logical reasoning that will apply as 'God's logic' and God's commandments are as invalid as the supposed factual events in a book that has just been declared unreliable, if I got you correctly.

Bear in mind that the much - vaunted Golden Rule is not Patented by Christianity but borrowed from human basic morality - Reciprocity. And as I recall, it is actually reversed in meaning to make it a pestilential evangelists' charter ("If I were in your shoes, I'd want you to convert me." effectively) and we all know how devoutly followed is the exhortation to give your assailant mugger your mobile 'phone, car keys, shirt, tie and boxer shorts, or to give all you have to the poor and follow Jesus.

Bad advice dudes and they know it. Never mind the one about helping out your neighbour pleases God more than going to church. ;) Sure you know it, but maybe it didn't sink in what it actually said.
To be clear, I am not saying pick and choose what you like from the bible. (A cafeteria Christianity as you suggest.) I am not saying we should disregard Genesis 1 (for example) because it lacks cosmological fact, as if it's some kind of intellectual embarrassment that should be hidden away. Rather I'm saying we need to view it through a different lens, with every single word of it being important to conveying (and understanding) its truth value. (Which I think is significant -- far more so than the physical truth of how the cosmos formed.) So I get why you're saying 'cafeteria Christianity', but it's less picking and choosing from the bible as it is picking a certain lens to view the bible --in its entirety-- from.

To that end, yes, I am effectively saying that the bible still has 'good ideas, lessons, and advice' as you put it. I would use stronger terms than that (i.e., I think the bible conveys a complete and robust moral-political-economic system), but your comment is fair enough. And I wouldn't argue against your point that it needs to be evaluated like any other such system (say, Communism). Of course it does. Nor your point that it shares in 'basic human morality' (whatever that is). The bible doesn't have a monopoly on such truth.

I'm not sure I'm following your point on God's logic and commandments though. Are you saying that from a moral perspective, the bible is false, because the laws it conveys are false? A bigger discussion, but if so, I would suggest that focusing on the law loses the forest for the trees. Not that we should disregard the law (a la cafeteria Christianity), but that the law and following the law was never the point to begin with. Any such codification of moral truth will eventually breakdown under the weight of the world and its limitless variations. As Paul says, Christians are not under the law, but grace.

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Re: A matter of faith and pride

Post #10

Post by Willum »

[Replying to theophile in post #9]

True, but the Bible has so many bad ideas, poor examples and downright evil, that a wise man would begin without it.

But remember, the topic is about whether you can distinguish the Bible from a 3rd century comic book.

I would presume if you could have, you would have.

Since you can’t, why should the opinion of someone who venerates a comic as real, be given serious consideration?

Do you value a toddler’s insight into Santa?

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