An Egyptian analogy

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Willum
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An Egyptian analogy

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Has it occurred to anyone else, that the chronology of the Egyptian religion is identical to the Christian religion?

In the beginning there was chaos, then the gods in the pantheon, then came the one god, Aten, then he was replaced by the resurrection cult of Osiris.

Where in the Christian religion:

In the beginning there was chaos, then the gods in the pantheon, then came the one god, Yahweh, then he was replaced by the resurrection cult of Jesus.

Isn’t it almost as if the Roman’s put modern lipstick on the Egyptian pig, then spread it through their trade lanes?

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #2

Post by Overcomer »

I wrote an essay years ago comparing the Bible's creation account with those of Egypt and Mesopotamia. I discovered that the similarities are few and superficial while the differences are many and significant.

Let's start with the similarities between the Egyptian account and the Biblical one:

Egypt boasted a myriad of deities. Information about them has been generally cadged from a variety of sources as there are no lengthy epics written about any of them. In fact, there (were) nearly one dozen Egyptian creation myths; the three most dominant arose in the cultic sites of Heliopolis, Memphis, and Hermopolis.

The one stemming from Hermopolis is considered to be the earliest Egyptian creation story. According to it, eight primeval gods who had emanated from the water of chaos, created the world and continued to govern the flow of the Nile and the daily rising of the sun. In Heliopolis, nine gods constituted the Great Ennead with Atum functioning as the creator god from whom the other eight derived. Atum supposedly created himself, then by masturbation gave birth to the others. In Memphis, Ptah replaced Atum. Indeed, he was considered to be the real power behind Atum’s creation and supposedly called the world into existence.

While Egyptian creation myths tended to focus on the creation of the world and ignore the origin of humanity, there is a work of Egyptian art that depicts Khnum, a ram-headed god, fashioning a person out of clay on a potter’s wheel. His consort gives the newly-formed man “the breath of life".

The similarities to the Genesis account are obvious. In the Hermopolis story, we have a water of chaos paralleling the formless water in Genesis 1. Khnum making a man out of clay reflects God making man out of dirt. Khum’s wife breathing life into the man parallels God giving Adam the breath of life.

So now let's look at the differences:

1. Egypt was polytheistic, having multiple gods; the Bible presents one God in three persons.

2. Looking at the Egyptian god Ptah, we see that creation supposedly emanated from him, making the god part of creation; the God of the Bible is separate from his creation, not part of it; the God of the Bible is totally "other" as he transcends his creation.

3. The Genesis account of creation is purposeful and orderly; the Egyptian story is chaotic and purposeless.

4. Egyptian gods were local, meaning that different gods "ruled" different designated areas; the God of the Bible is God of the whole earth and skies.

5. The Biblical account is presented as history while the Egyptian one is not; the God of the Bible presents a purposeful progress toward an end whereas the Egyptian gods did not.

6. Egyptian gods were considered to be part of nature and, therefore, had to be appeased and manipulated with sacrifices to get their crops to grow and the weather to cooperate, etc. ; the God of the Bible, recognizing that sacrifices of animals only covered sin but didn't remove it, sent his son as the sacrifice on our behalf. That is vastly different. No Egyptian god made himself a sacrifice for humankind.

7. People feared the Egyptian gods because they thought they were petty, mean, spiteful, unpredictable, selfish, capricious -- in other words, they thought their gods were just like people only with special powers as they made their gods in their own image. The Bible presents humanity as being made in God's image (in terms of qualities such as the ability to think, to make decisions, to love, etc.), and, as stated before, God is entirely separate from his creation and different in many categories, most importantly, in his holiness.

8. Egyptian gods regarded humanity as something to be used and played with for selfish gain and mean entertainment whereas the God of the Bible created humanity to be in a loving relationship with him and with each other. When that relationship was broken, he did what he had to do to restore that relationship and he did that out of love, for our benefit, not his, because he doesn't need us, we need him.

There are more, but I realize the above is probably more than some people want to read so I will stop there.

Here's a video (5:30) that is a humourous take on the comparison between Jesus and the Egyptian god Horus. It never fails to make me laugh.



The above also debunks the idea that Jesus was borrowed from the religion surrounding Mithras as well as characters from the Aztecs, the Mesopotamians and even Ghostbusters! Enjoy!

Lastly, please believe me when I say that the Romans had no interest in creating Christianity out of an Egyptian religion for any reason. In fact, they hated Christians because Christians refused to worship the emperor as Rome demanded. They would only worship the one true God. Therefore, the Romans persecuted them off and on for decades in an attempt to eradicate them.

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #3

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Overcomer in post #2]

Definitely one of the most ridiculous recounts of the Egyptian religion I have ever seen. I especially love that you think the Egyptians believed Aten created other deities through auto-erogeny. You must think the Egyptians were idiots. I’d report your demeaning Egyptians like that, but it seems only Christians can be offended here.

You seem to have missed studying that the Judaic myth had many deities. In fact they are still in the OT if you care to read it someday.

Like the Egyptians, those gods were dwindled. From more than 50, to Bael having a wife, Astereh, and a son Yahweh (Yahu-YHVH, as he is erroneously styled). Then the Judaists killed them off too, and replaced them with only Yahweh.

I think it was embarrassing to the Judaists to have the Roman god, Zeus, be omnipotent, when their chief deity was a storm god. Yahweh definitely needed an upgrade.

And the upgrade was certainly a Roman one.

Anyway, your recount was certainly amusing, you did mean it as a joke, right?

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #4

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The video does set out to debunk the idea that the Jesus -story is based on Egyptian religion, Mithraism or Tammuz. I have seen some of the supposed correlations debunked long since. I prefer the case that Christianity is not true and the Bible unreliable on more credible objections. Though the myth of stuff created out of 'Chaos' ( water perhaps) and the idea of a god risen from death does pop up in mythology quite a bit.

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:42 pm
Where in the Christian religion:

In the beginning there was chaos...
The bible never says in the beginning there was chaos neither does it suggest such a thing.
Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:42 pm the gods in the pantheon...
The Egyptian religion authorised the worship of many gods. The Hebrew and Jewish bible instructs believers to worship only One.


You only actually make two points of comparison between the Egyptian and Christian religions both of which are inaccurate. Could it be you are seeing patterns where there are none?
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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #6

Post by 1213 »

Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:42 pm ...
In the beginning there was chaos, then the gods in the pantheon, then came the one god, Yahweh, then he was replaced by the resurrection cult of Jesus.
...
What makes you to think there was chaos in the beginning? I don't think that is what the Bible teaches, nor does the Bible teach that God is replaced by Jesus.

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #7

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 1:26 amThe bible never says in the beginning there was chaos neither does it suggest such a thing.
It absolutely does. That's what tohu wabohu means and what tehom implies in verse 2.
If the first sentence states that "In the beginning God created heaven and earth," what ensued was chaos (vs. 2) which needed immediate attention.—E. A. Speiser, The Anchor Bible: Genesis
A short Introduction describing the primeval chaos (1:1-2) is followed by an account of the creation of the world in six days, by a series of eight divine flats, viz.: (1) the creation of light, and the separation of light from darkness, 3-5; (2) the division of the chaotic waters into two masses, one above and the other below the ‘ firmament,’ 6-8; ...—John Skinner, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on Genesis
Heb. tōhū wā-bōhū—an alliterative description of a chaos, in which nothing can be distinguished or defined.—S. R. Driver, The Book of Genesis
“Tohuwabohu” means the formless; the primeval waters over which darkness was superimposed characterizes the chaos materially as a watery primeval element, but at the same time gives a dimensional association: tehōm (“sea of chaos”) is the cosmic abyss.—Gerhard von Rad, Genesis
The two words without form … void express one concept—chaos.—NKJV Study Bible
This disjunctive clause portrays the primordial state as a dark, watery chaos, an image similar to the primordial state in Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Greek traditions.—HarperCollins Study Bible
This clause describes things just before the process of creation began. To modern people, the opposite of the created order is “nothing,” that is, a vacuum. To the ancients, the opposite of the created order was something much worse than “nothing.” It was an active, malevolent force we can best term “chaos.” In this verse, chaos is envisioned as a dark, undifferentiated mass of water.—The Jewish Study Bible
It's pretty well accepted by scholars and theologians, even conservative ones, that Genesis 1:2 refers to a state of chaos.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 1:26 am
Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:42 pm the gods in the pantheon...
The Egyptian religion authorised the worship of many gods. The Hebrew and Jewish bible instructs believers to worship only One.
As noted in the part of Willum's comment that you truncated, the various redactors responsible for the Bible as we have it now did make an attempt to recast the older traditions in a monotheistic (or at least monolatrous) light. Numerous vestiges of polytheism remain apparent within the Old Testament, however. It's unclear from your statement if you recognize that or not. When you claim that the Bible as it is instructs believers to worship a single god, is it your claim that apparent references to other gods are actually something else?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

EARLY EARTH : EMPTY OR CHAOTIC?

The bible describes the condition of early earth using the Hebrew expression "Tohu wa-bohu". The Septuagint rendered this expression into the greek (ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος) "unseen and unformed". It is generally translated as "formless and empty /waste" in ENGLISH bibles. (See various translations https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-2.htm )

Image

While the Hebrew can at least superficially imply "chaos" (or vanity) the biblical usage, obvious metaphor aside, when refering to geological locations overwhelmingly indicates that which is desolate, deserted or ruined or "empty". Isaiah 34:11b is interesting as we have an example of the parallelism so common in Hebrew poetry,
He will stretch out over her the measuring line of emptiness
And the plumb line of desolation.
Notice that the emptyness is put in parallelism with desolation. Other occurances refering to physical locations ...
DEUTERONMY 32:10a

He found him in a wilderness land ... In an empty, howling desert.
PSALM 107: 40

He pours out contempt upon nobles and makes them wander in trackless wastelands.

CONCLUSION: Whether a planet incapable of sustaining life could rightly be described as "chaotic" is debatable. Either way , the vast majority of Bible translators and Hebrew scholars have not translated "Tohu wa-bohu" at Genesis 1: 2 as "ruined and chaotic" or some such equivalent, no doubt to properly reflect biblical usage .


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun May 01, 2022 10:51 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:42 pm

Where in the Christian religion:

In the beginning there was chaos ...

The Christian religion teaches nothing of the kind. Note what the Christian canon states:

JOHN 1:1 NWT

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god
Various other translations
https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm

There is no suggestion in the Christian bible that the Word was ... chaotic.





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Romans 14:8

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Re: An Egyptian analogy

Post #10

Post by Willum »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #5]

No, but you refuse to see neither your religion, nor Judaism, nor your deity even existed when the Egyptian religion did…

That is unless you believe what the Bible writes about itself, and ignore history.

Which anyone of faith does.

And no.
Pantheon —> Fewer gods —-> Father, Son, Holy Mother —> Monotheis —> Resurrection cult

Yes, the names are different.
Yes, the stories get modernized.
Yes, the myth got updated so you don’t have to believe the Sun sinks into the Nile,

But it’s the same pulse, and nonsense.

God wants to forgive you for being what it designed you to be, by saying “sorry,” so you can live with him in Heaven.

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