Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

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oldbadger
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Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #1

Post by oldbadger »

The gospels repeat, again and again, that Jesus taught the people.
I don't think that he did, I think that he made political speeches.
His whole campaign was about a return to the old laws and an end to the corruption of the leadership.
His campaign was temporal, not spiritual, and he was a very poor teacher, more of a speechmaker.
If you have any doubts about this, you can read in the gospels about how so few people actually understood what he was saying.

So what's all this about 'teaching' and 'taught'?
Over to you all.......... :)

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

oldbadger wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 3:36 am The gospels repeat, again and again, that Jesus taught the people.
I don't think that he did, I think that he made political speeches.
His whole campaign was about a return to the old laws and an end to the corruption of the leadership.
His campaign was temporal, not spiritual, and he was a very poor teacher, more of a speechmaker.
If you have any doubts about this, you can read in the gospels about how so few people actually understood what he was saying.

So what's all this about 'teaching' and 'taught'?
Over to you all.......... :)
I think the political message of jesus is too often overlooked by so many. I'm not a political scientist - I hate politics in general as do many - but that doesn't mean politics didn't exist in the time of jesus. It makes sense to think jesus, as a man, was politically active in his time. Even if jesus was (part) deity, that could still apply.
The issue is that, when people want to believe, they take XYZ and make it to say whatever they want it to say. Additionally, even political speeches can be used as teaching tools. Over the centuries, it's not unthinkable that these speeches were twisted, edited or even made up, to fit an agenda (ie jesus was god and god says this or that).
This could be an interesting topic if people are honest in the discussion of it.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #3

Post by TRANSPONDER »

It could be read as that and in actuality it could have been and the Christian overpainting of scrapping the Old Law was not what Jesus taught.

However what is in the Gospels is more than just shouting at the Pharisees "Ya gotta do better!", but replacing the old laws with do good and play nice, and God will be pleased. This was the Pauline crock of logic that argued that there was righteousness before the Law was given and there is Righteousness outside the Law. All one needs to do is be good. And that is the teaching of the healings on the Sabbath and the teaching of David and the shewbread. The Law does not matter - being Good is what matters.

Sure, as Matthew says the Law will not pass away. But it can be superseded, just as he explains in the Sermon on the mount. The Law says This, but Jesus says play nice and do Good and the law being thus 'fulfilled' can be safely ignored.

He reiterates this in how to obtain eternal life. Keeping the Laws is (for a Jew) not far from the Kingdom of heaven (whatever he meant by that). One thing he lacks. Give all your money to the poor and follow Jesus. And never mind what the Jewish Law has to say about that.

No, I'd say that a return to observance of the old Jewish Law was absolutely not what the Gospels show him teaching.

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #4

Post by oldbadger »

nobspeople wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:34 am
I think the political message of jesus is too often overlooked by so many. I'm not a political scientist - I hate politics in general as do many - but that doesn't mean politics didn't exist in the time of jesus. It makes sense to think jesus, as a man, was politically active in his time. Even if jesus was (part) deity, that could still apply.
The issue is that, when people want to believe, they take XYZ and make it to say whatever they want it to say. Additionally, even political speeches can be used as teaching tools. Over the centuries, it's not unthinkable that these speeches were twisted, edited or even made up, to fit an agenda (ie jesus was god and god says this or that).
This could be an interesting topic if people are honest in the discussion of it.
Agreed. Politics has existed since mankind, I think.
Jesus was a working class person (there was no middle class) and was clearly very angry about the greed, corruption and hypocrisy of the priesthood and everything about the Great Temple. He wanted a return of all the old laws, especially the poor laws which he often referred to and practised.

Jesus didn't 'teach' anymore than our government officials do, or our union leaders....they make speech.

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #5

Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:38 am It could be read as that and in actuality it could have been and the Christian overpainting of scrapping the Old Law was not what Jesus taught.
But Jesus upheld all the old laws. He said so.
It's there to see and read.
The Law does not matter - being Good is what matters.
How has that worked out for us all?
Sure, as Matthew says the Law will not pass away. But it can be superseded, just as he explains in the Sermon on the mount. The Law says This, but Jesus says play nice and do Good and the law being thus 'fulfilled' can be safely ignored.
But Jesus never did say anything like that. And like the Baptist he was furious with the greed, corruption and hypocrisy of their leaders.
His actions in the Great Temple show exactly what he thought, and exactly what his campaign was all about.
He reiterates this in how to obtain eternal life. Keeping the Laws is (for a Jew) not far from the Kingdom of heaven (whatever he meant by that). One thing he lacks. Give all your money to the poor and follow Jesus. And never mind what the Jewish Law has to say about that.
The Kingdom of Heaven was what was promised to the Israelites if they would keep the laws..
LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to
possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people
.
They just had to keep the 613 laws for safety, security, cohesion, success etc...... easy
No, I'd say that a return to observance of the old Jewish Law was absolutely not what the Gospels show him teaching.
It wasn't the 'old Jewish Law' to the people of the Palestine Provinces, it was their law, ignored by a greedy bunch of quislings. :)

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #6

Post by TRANSPONDER »

No. Firstly because you are presumably citing Matthew's 5,17 (sermon on the mount' "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them For truly I say to you, till heaven an earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished'.

And indeed Bible critics and atheists have pointed to this as evidence that Jesus was an observant Jew and not anti - Judaism.

But this is open to question because of doings and sayings of Jesus about healing on the Sabbath, ritual cleanliness (which Mark, in his version clarified as Jesus declaring all foods clean, which scraps Kashrut...though that may not have been a Commandment. No, ritual cleanliness is not a commandment. But Sabbath observance is and no work may be done unless it is life threatening not to do so, as the Torah amendment has it). and Jesus being greater than the temple. The Sermon itself shows what was going on. Jesus supplants the Laws (OT scriptures) with his own instructions. As far as the Commandments go, putting himself above the Sabbath and putting the cult above the family ("Who are my Mother and brothers?" Mark 3.33) do abrogate the Commandments.

On the face of it, one could argue that Jesus is being crafty by pretending that binning the Laws in favour of his teachings is actually 'fulfilling' them. We are all familiar with twisted rhetoric such as 'Freedom is my right to persecute others' stuff, and there is the idea that 'all was fulfilled' at his resurrection, which would mean that the Law went in the compacter when Jesus rose from the tomb.

Secondly, because we can check what the Bible claims Jesus actually says, since Luke also has this (1) 16.17. "The law and the prophets were until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God is preached and everyone enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the law to become void". It then goes on with divorce being adultery (2) which is of course in Matthew's sermon (5. 31) because this is Luke using "Q" material. And one can predict that the material is used in this way and it pans out every time, and that is also a refutation of any attempt to argue that this was Jesus giving the same teaching at a later date (as though the Lord's prayer being in the Sermon in Matthew and setting out for Peraea in Luke didn't already scupper that excuse).

That means (as well as telling us something about the material and the way it is used) that Luke and Matthew here are using the same comment, as supposedly spoken by Jesus. Which is the original version, and which has been amended?

There is mention of the Law and the prophets. I doubt a coincidence. Luke is saying that they became void. Matthew May be saying that they will not be supplanted until 'all is fulfilled', or that Jesus himself is supplanting them. If there was a mention of John (and one wonders why Luke would invent him). Matthew has got rid of him and the Law and the prophets were until Jesus. Since then Jesus 'fulfilled' them all and we no longer need them. After all, this is what Paul teaches. Being nice guys makes the Law unnecessary. Matthew says the Law (dots and crosses) will not pass away but Luke says it's harder for it to pass away. Which way was it originally? I can't be sure, but I can be sure that the sense is (was) that the Law was solid - God's word after all) though it can, has and will pass away under the right circumstances; when John appeared, when 'all is fulfilled' and Jesus already 'fulfilled' the Sabbath and Temple when he started his mission (baptised by John). So they may agree that was when the Law and the prophets went down the tube.

Maybe. But one this is absolutely clear; so far as the Gospels are concerned, the Law and the prophets have been supplanted by Jesus, his sayings and the New Covenant, whatever Matthew says.

(1) and of course Mark doesn't have this passage, and it is is also 'Sermon material' that isn't in the sermon in Luke (half of it is) as half is strewn along the trail from Galilee to Peraea, which he departs 18.31 (Chapter and verse, not 6.31 p. m) which usage is typical of imported "Q" material.

(2) don't you just love those Gospel teachings, Christians? :D

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #7

Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 10:17 am No. Firstly because you are presumably citing Matthew's 5,17 (sermon on the mount' "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them For truly I say to you, till heaven an earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished'.

And indeed Bible critics and atheists have pointed to this as evidence that Jesus was an observant Jew and not anti - Judaism.
Hello Transponder, and thank you for the time which you spent to reply....
Yes, I did think of Mat5,17 but that is just one piece of evidence for claiming that Jesus definitely supported all the laws.....the lot, including and especially the poor laws. He showed this in actions as well as spoke it.
Also, his next words underscore his absolute intention to keep all the laws, including all those ignored by a greedy, corrupted, quisling priesthood:-
''Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {5:20} For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.''
....fairly clear, I think.

His arguments with critics did not repeal anything, imo, and even his suggested daily prayer shows just what he wanted. thus:-
This whole prayer is speech outlining laws for Jews to obey. To be spoken and lived, everyday:-

Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Question:-What is the meaning of Hallow in the Bible?
Answer:- Hallowed means to keep holy and set apart.
Set apart from others by the Laws given to Moses. Thus:-
LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and
therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.
--------------------------------------------
Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
THE BIRTH OF THE LAWS
EXODUS {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
---------------------------------------------
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts,
LEVITICUS {19:9} And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. {19:10} And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather [every] grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.
......and.........
Exodus {22:25} If thou lend money to [any of] my people [that is] poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Leviticus {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
------------------------------------------
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Deuteronomy {15:1} At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. {15:2} And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it;] he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD’S release.
Deut {15:7} If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: {15:8} But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he wanteth.
-----------------------------------------
And lead us not into temptation,
Mark {4:19} And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
---------------------------------------------------
but deliver us from evil.
Mark {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! {10:24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust
in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! {10:25} It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory
The land of the Jews, the laws and success for all.

Just about every part of the original G-Mark shows that Jesus and the Baptist both were campaigning against a very fat corrupted priesthood which had ignored the old laws for more fashionable cultures, class and comforts. :)

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #8

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Obviously, we are not going to agree on this and you clearly accept all these passages as the actual works of Jesus in the context in which the Gospels places them, whereas I have explained why I think they are words put into Jesus' mouth by the Christian writers; and even when they used the same passage (as relating to the jots and tittles of the Law) they altered it so we can be confident (if we care about the evidence) that Matthew altered it to reflect his own views, and it is not to be taken as reflecting Jesus' views.

I am pretty sure that if Jesus existed, he was a Pharisee himself, as were his followers; and I do not mean by that that he was a nasty piece of work as represented in the Gospels. They are misrepresented by hostile Christians and I have offered as evidence the examples of Sabbath -breaking which (if Jesus had done any such thing) it would have occasioned discussion about whether it was ok to heal on the Sabbath if it wasn't a matter of life or death. But there is never any discussion. The 'Pharisees' are silenced by a trashy argument such as 'David ate the Shewbread' and the slink away to plot murder.

Add to this that in Acts, Peter refuses to kill and eat the contexts of a hammock of wrigglies lowered from heaven (Acts 10.11) and he says he has never eaten anything unclean. But Jesus had been teaching that all foods were clean.

These are not the words of Jesus but of Christian writers using the figure of Jesus to peddle their own views, beliefs and opinions, and often contradictory ones.

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #9

Post by oldbadger »

Hello @TRANSPONDER. I don't accept all of the claims for Jesus, nor all his words, but most of G-Mark seems to be the true account to me, less the Christian additions.

Very few researchers agree about everything or even much. :)

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Re: Jesus did not teach, he made speeches!

Post #10

Post by theophile »

My two cents on the discussion if interested: It's not a return to the law. Jesus was a law-breaker. It's more a return to what gave rise to the law in the first place, and what the law was always meant to achieve. (Along the lines of Transponder's position.)

The trick is rethinking what it means to fulfill the law. By which I mean, when Jesus says he came to fulfill the law, and not to abolish it, we should understand that as fulfilling the law's original intention. What the law was made to do in the first place and what it directs us toward. He does not mean fulfill the law in the sense of obeying it...

So, for the sake of argument, if the original intention and direction of the law was to serve life, even by giving rights to slaves for instance (as hard as that sounds), then fulfilling the law ultimately means setting slaves free, and helping them out, since that is what it truly means to serve life. See what I mean?

Similarly, if the law is to serve life, which depends on trust, then it may outlaw adultery. But as we see from Jesus, fulfilling that law ultimately means not casting any stones, and letting the adulterer go, since that is the true fulfillment of the law's intent.

Or same with not working on the Sabbath. If that law was made to serve life, then fulfilling the law may mean breaking the law and working on the Sabbath (as Jesus also shows).

So it's clearly not a straight-up return to the law (there is no way to reconcile that with Jesus' actual actions). It is more precisely a return to what gave rise to the law in the first place, and what the law directs us towards.

Anyways, food for thought.

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