The fairy tale of the talking bush

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The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

In another thread, the topic of evolution came up and a poster (Eloi) accused it of being a 'fairy tale'. Aside from the fact that this poster doesn't understand religion, it made me wonder what fairy tales we accept and what ones we don't.

But let's not allow this thread to turn into a pro- anti-evolution thread; let's talk about fairy tales and their believability.

It seems to me, there's more scientific evidence for evolution than there is for any god existing. There is some truth in that in every myth, legend, tale, there's a hint of truth. This doesn't mean the entire myth, legend, tale is true.

Let's, ironically, talk about the talking and burning bush that wasn't consumed, while keeping it simple.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_b ... %20bush%20(or%20the,the%20flames%2C%20hence%20the%20name.

For discussion:
How is this story not a fairy tale yet evolution is?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #11

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:37 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:09 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:32 pm
For discussion:
How is this story not a fairy tale yet evolution is?
Dogs produce dogs.
:? The depth of creationist arguments simply boggles the mind.
Not that I want to encourage yet another Evolution - debate, but that one liner does cover a lot of the evolution - denier claim; There is no speciation. There seems to be a totally false belief that there is some genetic barrier that prevents speciation. They confuse this with the infertile results of breeding between species which have grown genetically distinct. But that isn''t how evolution works. And they know this because even creationism accepts that critters change within species. That has been observed. Thus their denial is that such change within a species can never become so extensive that they have to be given a different species -name. This is like someone accepting that aircraft can fly from one place to another, but he denies that they could ever fly from one country to another. There is a Geographical boundary that prevents it. Even science admits this as the borders are shown on any atlas. or globe.

It was rather interesting to me that Ken Ham put a Pakicetus (a very pretty replica O:) ) on his replica Ark. This means that he is accepting that the cetan sequence is true - a land animal (Pakicetus) evolved into a sea creature (Whale). He is just arguing that Pakicetus was the Baryma or Baryon (a basic 'kind' from which all the variants evolved in a few thousand years after the Ark) essentially, YE Creationist have been forced into packing Evolution and Geology into a time period between the Flood and the start of civilisation..

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #12

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

brunumb wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:37 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:09 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:32 pm
For discussion:
How is this story not a fairy tale yet evolution is?
Dogs produce dogs.
:? The depth of creationist arguments simply boggles the mind.
Right, it is as simple as observing nature, and based on repeated phenomenons that are observed, you can draw certain conclusions.

And once certain things are concluded based on those observations, certain statements can be made...some of which are simple, as..

"Dogs produce dogs".

No voodoo, hocus pocus, or bio-babble required.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #13

Post by Difflugia »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 amRight, it is as simple as observing nature,
And then ignoring the observations.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 amand based on repeated phenomenons
"Phenomena."
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 amthat are observed,
The ones that don't contradict what you think the Bible says, anyway.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 amyou can draw certain conclusions.
If you knew what the conclusion would be in the first place, did you really draw the conclusion?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 amAnd once certain things are concluded based on those observations, certain statements can be made...some of which are simple, as..

"Dogs produce dogs".
"The Earth is flat."

"The Universe is 6,000 years old."

"Bats are birds."
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:22 amNo voodoo, hocus pocus, or bio-babble required.
After all, it's just common sense that the Sun revolves around the Earth, right?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #14

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Difflugia wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:04 am And then ignoring the observations.
If I dont observe it, I cant ignore it.
"Phenomena."
Same thing. Some splitting hairs action going on here.
The ones that don't contradict what you think the Bible says, anyway.
The Bible says that animals were commanded to bring forth after their kinds...and what we observe in nature are dogs producing dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish.

So far from contradicting the Bible, it corroborates the Bible.
If you knew what the conclusion would be in the first place, did you really draw the conclusion?
?
"The Earth is flat."
Does the Bible say the earth is flat?
"The Universe is 6,000 years old."
Have you ever heard of old earth creationists?
"Bats are birds."
Subjective. Depends on how you categorize animals.
After all, it's just common sense that the Sun revolves around the Earth, right?
Scripture? Whatcha got?
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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #15

Post by Difflugia »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
Difflugia wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:04 am And then ignoring the observations.
If I dont observe it, I cant ignore it.
You have, so apparently you can and do.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
"Phenomena."
Same thing. Some splitting hairs action going on here.
You don't like my datums?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
"Phenomena."
The Bible says that animals were commanded to bring forth after their kinds...and what we observe in nature are dogs producing dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish.
This is what we observe, at least if we don't ignore the genomic datums:

Image
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pmSo far from contradicting the Bible, it corroborates the Bible.
These datums neither corroborate the Bible nor any peculiar attempts at literal interpretation.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
"The Earth is flat."
Does the Bible say the earth is flat?
That depends on how literally one takes Matthew 4:8.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
"The Universe is 6,000 years old."
Have you ever heard of old earth creationists?
Yes. I've also heard of theistic evolutionists, but that doesn't stop the creationists from still being wrong, now does it?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
"Bats are birds."
Subjective. Depends on how you categorize animals.
It's only subjective if one is willing to ignore the datums from modern biology.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
After all, it's just common sense that the Sun revolves around the Earth, right?
Scripture? Whatcha got?
If the only datums I get are from Scripture, then not much, that's for sure. Not much at all.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #16

Post by brunumb »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:36 pm
Difflugia wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:04 am And then ignoring the observations.
If I dont observe it, I cant ignore it.
By doing this I suppose.

Image
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #17

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 pm 2. Why is this story more probable to be true, verses false? Is it because you feel the Bible provides wisdom? If so, is there anything written in the Bible which requires wisdom above the ability of men alone?
3. If you do not know who wrote Exodus, then how do you know the author is trustworthy in this story line?
4. Again, if you do not know who the author was, then how do you know they witnessed anything?
5. Again, if you do not know who wrote of this story, then how do you know you can trust the story line?
2. By what I know, atheists understand the Bible without contradictions. That indicates one needs God to understand the Bible.
3. What difference it would make even if I would know the writer? I think it is irrelevant, or, would you believe it, if you would know the author?
5. I think I already answered to this, but, I trust to it, because the entire Bible shows wisdom and understanding that I think is from God and makes it trustworthy for me.

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #18

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:11 am
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 pm 2. Why is this story more probable to be true, verses false? Is it because you feel the Bible provides wisdom? If so, is there anything written in the Bible which requires wisdom above the ability of men alone?
3. If you do not know who wrote Exodus, then how do you know the author is trustworthy in this story line?
4. Again, if you do not know who the author was, then how do you know they witnessed anything?
5. Again, if you do not know who wrote of this story, then how do you know you can trust the story line?
2. By what I know, atheists understand the Bible without contradictions. That indicates one needs God to understand the Bible.
3. What difference it would make even if I would know the writer? I think it is irrelevant, or, would you believe it, if you would know the author?
5. I think I already answered to this, but, I trust to it, because the entire Bible shows wisdom and understanding that I think is from God and makes it trustworthy for me.
2. Can you elaborate?
5. You do not believe it is possible to create such writings without divine help?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #19

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:50 am
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:11 am
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 pm 2. Why is this story more probable to be true, verses false? Is it because you feel the Bible provides wisdom? If so, is there anything written in the Bible which requires wisdom above the ability of men alone?
3. If you do not know who wrote Exodus, then how do you know the author is trustworthy in this story line?
4. Again, if you do not know who the author was, then how do you know they witnessed anything?
5. Again, if you do not know who wrote of this story, then how do you know you can trust the story line?
2. By what I know, atheists understand the Bible without contradictions. That indicates one needs God to understand the Bible.
3. What difference it would make even if I would know the writer? I think it is irrelevant, or, would you believe it, if you would know the author?
5. I think I already answered to this, but, I trust to it, because the entire Bible shows wisdom and understanding that I think is from God and makes it trustworthy for me.
2. Can you elaborate?
5. You do not believe it is possible to create such writings without divine help?
2. Sorry, not good editing in that. :D My point was, atheist think Bible is contradictory and they don't understand it. To me that indicates it is not from humans only when it seems God and His Holy Spirit is needed to understand it without contradictions and other silly problems.
5. I don't believe people could have done the Bible without God's influence and I don't think it would have remained till this day without God's influence. Reason why I think so is that it has knowledge and wisdom that I think people would not have without God. For example this is against natural mans ideas and especially not how people live without God:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Also I think Bible has the best knowledge, understanding and explanation how earth was formed. And I don't think humans could have developed it on their own. (The idea of how dry land was in the beginning, how the flood came and how current continents were formed).

I think Bible knows also well the future, which to me tells about God's influence.

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Re: The fairy tale of the talking bush

Post #20

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:49 pm
POI wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:50 am
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:11 am
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 pm 2. Why is this story more probable to be true, verses false? Is it because you feel the Bible provides wisdom? If so, is there anything written in the Bible which requires wisdom above the ability of men alone?
3. If you do not know who wrote Exodus, then how do you know the author is trustworthy in this story line?
4. Again, if you do not know who the author was, then how do you know they witnessed anything?
5. Again, if you do not know who wrote of this story, then how do you know you can trust the story line?
2. By what I know, atheists understand the Bible without contradictions. That indicates one needs God to understand the Bible.
3. What difference it would make even if I would know the writer? I think it is irrelevant, or, would you believe it, if you would know the author?
5. I think I already answered to this, but, I trust to it, because the entire Bible shows wisdom and understanding that I think is from God and makes it trustworthy for me.
2. Can you elaborate?
5. You do not believe it is possible to create such writings without divine help?
2. Sorry, not good editing in that. :D My point was, atheist think Bible is contradictory and they don't understand it. To me that indicates it is not from humans only when it seems God and His Holy Spirit is needed to understand it without contradictions and other silly problems.
5. I don't believe people could have done the Bible without God's influence and I don't think it would have remained till this day without God's influence. Reason why I think so is that it has knowledge and wisdom that I think people would not have without God. For example this is against natural mans ideas and especially not how people live without God:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Also I think Bible has the best knowledge, understanding and explanation how earth was formed. And I don't think humans could have developed it on their own. (The idea of how dry land was in the beginning, how the flood came and how current continents were formed).

I think Bible knows also well the future, which to me tells about God's influence.
2. If a book has no contradictions, it is from God?
5. Instructing a 'how-to' for slavery, commanding infanticide, allowing for rape, instructing that homosexuality is a 'sin', instructing that women are inferior to men in leadership, etc..., requires the work of a God?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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