Christiantianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

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Christiantianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Christianity (and religion in general) gets back to its primary purpose:
Being a Tool for the State.
Since Constantine, the Church has been used to serve the interests of the State.
Before Constantine, Abraham invoked the name of 'God' to build and control his tribe.

Now we have the Russian Orthodox Church supporting the genocide against the Ukrainian people.
Since March 6th, when Kirill, the patriarch of Moscow and primate of the Russian Orthodox Church, gave an incendiary homily likening Russia’s invasion to a culture war against the West, plenty of questions have been asked about his role and his motives. Is he a tool of Vladimir Putin or Putin’s spiritual adviser? Is his vision of “Russky Mir” (“Russian World”) the basis for Putin’s war
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-co ... in-ukraine
There's nothing new under the Sun, but at least the Pope gets it:
"Pope Francis warned the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church not to be “Putin’s altar boy” and justify the Russian president’s invasion of Ukraine."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... h-ukraine/
[edit]
The question for debate: Is the primary purpose of religion to aid the State in its control of the populace?*

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*Thanks to brunumb for reminding me to pose a question for debate
Last edited by Diogenes on Thu May 05, 2022 1:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Christianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #21

Post by Diogenes »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:51 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:50 pm
Despite Jesus' efforts to emphasize the spiritual and the Kingdom of Heaven, Christianity became political almost immediately.
So you recognise that Jesus of Nazareth did not preach a political gospel?
As I've stated clearly, Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus, other than that Paul was inspired by him. By the same token, JWism has even less to do with Jesus than other Chritian orgs. I'll never get over making an idol of the English 'Jehovah' which comes from a passage in scripture where 'god' tells Moses he has no name. I don't know how you can get more twisted.

Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” [or "I am what I am." This talking bush is explaining to Moses that he has no name; that he is beyond naming, that 'he' is what 'he' is.
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Re: Christianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diogenes wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:32 pm

As I've stated clearly, Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus, other than that Paul was inspired by him. ....

You did not answer the question. You said ....


Diogenes wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:50 pm
Despite Jesus' efforts to emphasize the spiritual and the Kingdom of Heaven, Christianity became political almost immediately.
QUESTION #1 : In view of your refering to { quote } "Jesus' efforts to emphasize the spiritual and the Kingdom of Heaven" ...would it not be fair to say you recognise Jesus did not preach a political gospel?

QUESTION #2: In view as your refering to the fact that { quote }Christianity became political almost immediately. === here comes the question (I'll put it in colour so you can see it clearly) === does that not amount to recognising that Christianity was not political from its inception?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Christiantianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #23

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I think that's right. I see no indication that Pauline Christianity was any more political than existing within the political/temporal socio -political framework and not rocking the boat.

I would claim that it became very political indeed 'almost immediately' after it became state religion. I have read that the earliest popes began putting pressure on the Emperor to suppress and disenfranchise all rival religions.

I also suggest that Paul's 'conversion' was more political than spiritual. I have a Theory.... :roll: ..that he first opposed the Nazorenes because they opposed the Romans and their political allies (the Sadducee -run Sanhedrin) but he later saw Nazorene -messianism as a way to save his fellow citizens when the last days came - which he clearly thought were coming. But this is just an idea of my own and nobody that I know of suggests this theory.

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Re: Christianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #24

Post by JoeyKnothead »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:51 am So you recognise that Jesus of Nazareth did not preach a political gospel?
I keep your words below in mind, as I ask, in seriousity...

Ain't the turning over of the tables at least partially a political message? I understand we're kinda bound to the bible for this bit.
If we recognise that Christianity is rooted in the teachings of Christ as expressed in the practices of his first century disciples, then (according to the biblical narrative) it was not originally a political but a uniquely religious movement.
In the day and age though, can't we say that religion and politics were so closely tied, as to be inseparable?

I'll propose say 90 percent religious, and 10 percent political. Is that fair?
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Re: Christianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:32 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:51 am So you recognise that Jesus of Nazareth did not preach a political gospel?
I keep your words below in mind, as I ask, in seriousity... Ain't the turning over of the tables at least partially a political message?
No, not really. The temple was a religious not a political center and Jesus point was surely that it not be turned into a commercial one. The Romans mostly left the Jewish leaders to manage the temple affairs so Jesus would hardly have chosen to send a message to the Romans by acting where the Romans were least likely to care.
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Re: Christianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:32 pm
In the day and age though, can't we say that religion and politics were so closely tied, as to be inseparable?

I'll propose say 90 percent religious, and 10 percent political. Is that fair?
I'm not sure of your maths or but yes religion and politics have always been bedfellows... Most major religions including the various Christian groups) are deeply tried to politics, at least at their upper levels as in the religious leaders not necessarily their membership.

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Re: Christiantianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #27

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Jehovah's Witnesses do evidently make a point that they do not get involved in politics. I'm not sure that this is a point in their favor though; it is too like those insular and secretive little groups that shun any participation with the wider society - apart from when it is convenient to them.

Incidentally the loving enthusiasm with which that Scarlet Woman was depicted makes one wonder about the apparent JW message that they will eschew her, and whether there's something wrong with them if they do.

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Re: Christiantianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #28

Post by pjharrison57 »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

The body of Christ do not have anything to do with the state. That is one of the reasons they killed him.

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Re: Christiantianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #29

Post by Clownboat »

pjharrison57 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

The body of Christ do not have anything to do with the state. That is one of the reasons they killed him.
The body of Muhammed has nothing to do with the state either. If that is a valid reason for death, why was he not put to death like Jesus from the Bible?
I sure hope your body has something to do with the state. Would hate to have them (whomever that is) kill you.

In your posts, if you were to change references from Jesus to Muhammed and from the God of the Bible to Allah, would you then find your reasoning sounding silly, empty and unjustified? :nervous:
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Re: Christianity Gets Back to its Political Roots

Post #30

Post by Diogenes »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:49 pm
Diogenes wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:32 pm

As I've stated clearly, Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus, other than that Paul was inspired by him. ....

You did not answer the question. You said ....


Diogenes wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:50 pm
Despite Jesus' efforts to emphasize the spiritual and the Kingdom of Heaven, Christianity became political almost immediately.
QUESTION #1 : In view of your refering to { quote } "Jesus' efforts to emphasize the spiritual and the Kingdom of Heaven" ...would it not be fair to say you recognise Jesus did not preach a political gospel?

QUESTION #2: In view as your refering to the fact that { quote }Christianity became political almost immediately. === here comes the question (I'll put it in colour so you can see it clearly) === does that not amount to recognising that Christianity was not political from its inception?
["I'll put this in [large bold] so you can see it clearly"]
What was there about "As I've stated clearly, Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus" that you didn't understand? This shows the same or less understanding than that expressed by
pjharrison57's
The body of Christ do not have anything to do with the state.

So called "Christians" have insisted they get the the church, the "body of Christ" involved with the State. Jesus told them not to. But they are not followers of Jesus; they are Christians. We have the sad scenario where church's are becoming political action groups, not collections of the spiritual.
The root of the discord lies in the fact that many Christians have embraced the worst aspects of our culture and our politics. When the Christian faith is politicized, churches become repositories not of grace but of grievances, places where tribal identities are reinforced, where fears are nurtured, and where aggression and nastiness are sacralized. The result is not only wounding the nation; it’s having a devastating impact on the Christian faith.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cs/620469/
I may have to change my /s/ to "Just because I don't respond to your post, you may assume I did not deem it worthy of consideration."
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