The Central Problem with Christianity

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 864 times
Been thanked: 1266 times

The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2696
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 485 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #11

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to theophile in post #4
It's not that we shouldn't accumulate wealth or marry because the world as we know it is going to end, but rather because these are the shifts required to bring about the changing of the age. The new world order will come (/all things will be made new) because we've stopped living in sin
This sounds like the pronouncement of Isaiah 59:20:

"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

.....before Paul mistranslated it as:

"....There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
(Romans 11:26)

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8495
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2147 times
Been thanked: 2295 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #12

Post by Tcg »

theophile wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:24 am
2) It's not that we shouldn't accumulate wealth or marry because the world as we know it is going to end, but rather because these are the shifts required to bring about the changing of the age. The new world order will come (/all things will be made new) because we've stopped living in sin, part of which means we no longer focus on accumulating wealth (i.e., putting our trust in money, spouse, what have you, over God).
The new world order? Fascinating.

The original suggestions related to marriage and wealth mention nothing about a new world order. Nor do they mention putting trust in one's spouse or one's wealth over trusting in God. Rather, it is marriage itself and wealth itself that is considered a no-no. Of course, it isn't uncommon to see explanations added which aren't part of the actual text. If the text were consistent on its own, these additions wouldn't be needed. Alas, additions such as this are standard practice.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
oldbadger
Guru
Posts: 1871
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:11 am
Has thanked: 321 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #13

Post by oldbadger »

Diogenes wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:15 pm Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
All interesting and valid, but there might be much more impressive and Central Problems with Christianity.

The biggest problem that Christianity has is that the resurrection is really really dodgy claim. To leave Jesus in a Tomb just as Saturday commences and nobody present until Magdalene attends just as Sunday commences (that would be at dusk, not dawn)....this has to be the Central Problem with Christianity.

The fact that Jesus told time and time again ...not to follow, or gather mammon.....Christianity forgot about that a long time ago.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 8194
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 958 times
Been thanked: 3552 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #14

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:01 pm [Replying to theophile in post #4
It's not that we shouldn't accumulate wealth or marry because the world as we know it is going to end, but rather because these are the shifts required to bring about the changing of the age. The new world order will come (/all things will be made new) because we've stopped living in sin
This sounds like the pronouncement of Isaiah 59:20:

"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

.....before Paul mistranslated it as:

"....There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."
(Romans 11:26)
Interesting. I've seen quite a few retranslations in Paul. So that one changes the OT from the Redeemer /Deliverer coming to those who have turned from transgression to coming and doing the turning away himself.

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 126 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #15

Post by theophile »

Tcg wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 1:02 am
theophile wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:24 am
2) It's not that we shouldn't accumulate wealth or marry because the world as we know it is going to end, but rather because these are the shifts required to bring about the changing of the age. The new world order will come (/all things will be made new) because we've stopped living in sin, part of which means we no longer focus on accumulating wealth (i.e., putting our trust in money, spouse, what have you, over God).
The new world order? Fascinating.

The original suggestions related to marriage and wealth mention nothing about a new world order. Nor do they mention putting trust in one's spouse or one's wealth over trusting in God. Rather, it is marriage itself and wealth itself that is considered a no-no. Of course, it isn't uncommon to see explanations added which aren't part of the actual text. If the text were consistent on its own, these additions wouldn't be needed. Alas, additions such as this are standard practice.


Tcg
On a new world order, just look at a text like Revelation. New Jerusalem descending from the heavens. God dwelling on earth... It's a new world order. The changing of an age. E.g., 21:5: "And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

Also, on this being a matter of trusting God over worldly wealth, you are the one not looking at the actual text. It is all there, laid out pretty clearly. No additions. Even in the chapter cited in the OP, which conveniently left out the next verses which make my case and explain why we shouldn't accumulate wealth in the first place (spoiler alert: it has nothing to do with the world ending):
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
As in, if we read a few verses on, "No man can serve two masters... You cannot serve both God and money". (Which means, either we serve God and put our trust in God, or we serve the things of this world, including our marital relations, and put our trust in them to save us.)

And if we keep reading we get an even fuller explanation:
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? ... See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. "
Like, what more evidence do you need that this is all about trusting God to provide?

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11476
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:30 am ...
My understanding is that owning possessions could/would get in the way of numero uno --- (Christ/Jesus/God). ...
I think that is not a bad understanding. I can agree that in Biblical point of view God should be higher for a person than earthly possessions. However, it does not mean that person can't have anything. And that would not be the same as not having property because the end is near.
POI wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:30 am...Did Jesus, as well as some/all of these Bible authors, believe the end was coming soon?
... ...Mark 13:32 -- But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
...
I think many probably believed that the end is near. But as you point out, not even Jesus knew when it will come, which is why he can't be wrong about it.

Also, there are many ends that have already happened. I think many of what Jesus told about end times have happened. For example the destruction of the temple. Return of Jesus from the death. Only the judgment day has not probably been yet and many of the prophesies are not necessary about it.

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11476
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 374 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #17

Post by 1213 »

Diogenes wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pm ...Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matt. 16:28).
That happened after few days.

After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
Matt. 17:1-3
Diogenes wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pmTruly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (Matt. 24:34).
I think the "this generation" means that generation that sees all the things. But, you probably disagree, which is why I want to ask, is it possible that all the things Jesus said should have happened have already happened? If not, what has not happened and how do you know that?

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3526
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1619 times
Been thanked: 1083 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #18

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:57 am
POI wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:30 am ...
My understanding is that owning possessions could/would get in the way of numero uno --- (Christ/Jesus/God). ...
I think that is not a bad understanding. I can agree that in Biblical point of view God should be higher for a person than earthly possessions. However, it does not mean that person can't have anything. And that would not be the same as not having property because the end is near.
Again, I do not think Jesus was keen on wealth. I trust we agree there exists a HUGE disparity between having anything at all -- (as you bring up), verses wealth.

As Diogenes pointed out in the OP, "why do most Christians try to accumulate wealth, despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?"

And BTW, Christians have been saying "the end is near" for a couple of thousand years now. What the heck is He waiting for? Inquiring minds want to know????
1213 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:57 am there are many ends that have already happened. I think many of what Jesus told about end times have happened. For example the destruction of the temple. Return of Jesus from the death. Only the judgment day has not probably been yet and many of the prophesies are not necessary about it.
I've read the Bible and such 'prophetic/predictions' are no more or less specific than going to your nearest psychic for a reading, or simply reading Nostradamus.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1308
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 864 times
Been thanked: 1266 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #19

Post by Diogenes »

oldbadger wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 2:25 am All interesting and valid, but there might be much more impressive and Central Problems with Christianity.

The biggest problem that Christianity has is that the resurrection is really really dodgy claim. To leave Jesus in a Tomb just as Saturday commences and nobody present until Magdalene attends just as Sunday commences (that would be at dusk, not dawn)....this has to be the Central Problem with Christianity.

The fact that Jesus told time and time again ...not to follow, or gather mammon.....Christianity forgot about that a long time ago.
Good point! Although a central deviation from Jesus' teaching is the 'prosperity gospel,' turning the messenger into a god via the resurrection is the core corruption of the message Jesus brought. In addition to the "dodgy claim" of the resurrection, I'd add the failure of his prophesy of a quick "Second Coming" as concrete evidence of his human rather than divine nature.
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2696
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 485 times

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #20

Post by Athetotheist »

1213 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:03 am
Diogenes wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pm ...Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matt. 16:28).
That happened after few days.

After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
Matt. 17:1-3
Diogenes wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pmTruly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (Matt. 24:34).
I think the "this generation" means that generation that sees all the things. But, you probably disagree, which is why I want to ask, is it possible that all the things Jesus said should have happened have already happened? If not, what has not happened and how do you know that?
If those who were not to taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom were only three of Jesus' disciples in a remote setting after only a few days, it would hardly qualify as an impressive prophecy; most likely everyone present would still be living a few days later. And just before that he states that the Son of Man will be coming with his angels to reward each according to his works. That doesn't happen during the transfiguration.

And "this generation" meaning the generation which wouldn't pass away until it saw all the things which would happen before it passed away would be tautology----needless repetition of the same idea----and again not an impressive prophecy.

Post Reply