Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:43 pm
1213 wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 11:03 am
Diogenes wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pm
...Truly, I say to you,
there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matt. 16:28).
That happened after few days.
After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
Matt. 17:1-3
Diogenes wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 12:09 pmTruly, I say to you,
this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (Matt. 24:34).
I think the "this generation" means that generation that sees all the things. But, you probably disagree, which is why I want to ask, is it possible that all the things Jesus said should have happened have already happened? If not, what has not happened and how do you know that?
If those who were not to taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom were only three of Jesus' disciples in a remote setting after only a few days, it would hardly qualify as an impressive prophecy; most likely
everyone present would still be living a few days later. And just before that he states that the Son of Man will be coming with his angels to reward each according to his works. That doesn't happen during the transfiguration.
And "this generation" meaning the generation which wouldn't pass away until it saw all the things which would happen before it passed away would be tautology----needless repetition of the same idea----and again not an impressive prophecy.
It isn't a tautology, but you are trying to make it look like one. It is a prophetic promise that those listening to him (all the 12, including Judas, mind) on the mount of olives once he had finished his wrangles and denunciations in the Temple) would see the things he had prophecies happen while some were still alive. This isn't the only time Jesus says such things. The Sanhedrin would see Jesus coming on the clouds, and the last days or end would come before the disciples had passed through the towns and cities twice or something of that kind.
Clearly though near 2,000 years later, they are all long dead and the prophecy hasn't happened. That despite trying to rewrite 'Generation' to mean something else (which other passages show it doesn't), or that it is happening or even has happened, which evidently it hasn't.
It doesn't wash that it happened during the transfiguration (aside that John effectively denies that any such thing ever happened) because. even if one were to buy that the 16. 28 (1) passage refers to the transfiguration that happens right after that, we still have the prophecies of the mount of Olives and the threat (or promise) to the Sanhedrin, which clearly doesn't refer to that.
Let's be clear about this, folks; we cannot persuade the Faithful it isn't true, because they will rewrite the Bible in their heads or even deny it in order to avoid admitting that they are wrong. That is what it about and all it has ever been about. Accordingly, all that matters to them is denying everything and clinging to their Faith.
That doesn't matter at all. What is REALLY under discussion here is whether anyone who does NOT have Faith and still has the ability to process Data rationally will buy the arguments that the prophecies of the Mount of Olives will come true or have come true. I say that they will not buy it that 'Generation' means all and every humung bean that has ever lived until the prophecy comes true or the sun swallows the earth as a red giant. Or that all those things are coming to pass today, with wars and rumours of wars and human wickedness and blasphemies and fornications, like that hasn't been going on for 2,000 years, already.
This prophecy will be seen to have signally failed by anyone not already in denial because of Faith. Just as they cannot be persuaded that God's genocides are moral and merited, or that hellthreat makes any sense. And to that (it is my mission) I will add the demonstrable fabrication of the nativities, the nearly as provable fabrication of the resurrections and the rest will follow until they realise (despite the stout denial of the Faithful and their exhortations that they should have Faith) that the gospels are not true, reliable, trustworthy or eyewitness accounts.
(1) Luke 9. 27, Mark 9.1
).
As Jesus continues not to come, and likely never will, Christians can rinse/repeat with the same assertions indefinitely.
