The Central Problem with Christianity

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Diogenes
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The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #151

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:55 am
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 12:44 pm 1. This circles us right back to what I stated prior. I trust we would agree there is a huge difference between owning things, and being wealthy? Seems Jesus wants you to give up as many possessions as possible, to assure you do not take your focus off of Him. Case/point; Luke 14:33 "those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.". Seems pretty clear as to what Jesus wants. He wants you to give up any/all possessions which would possibly act as a distractor.
Why do you continue to ignore Mark 10:29-30?

"Jesus said, “Most assuredly I tell you, there is no one who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or land, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake, but he will receive one hundred times more now in this time, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and land, with persecutions; and in the age to come eternal life."
Mark 10:29-30
I'm not ignoring anything, quite frankly. The quandary, which you might find yourself upon, is that you must 'ignore' some Verses. In other words, to retain 'faith' in this collection of assertions, you must become a 'cafeteria Christian'. Which means you will have, no choice, put to (spin / rationalize / ignore / skip / or 'explain away') Luke 14:33, Matthew 6:19-20, etc... :)

I, as no longer being a believer, do not have to continue wrestling with the same conundrums as you still do...
1213 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:55 am But, because you demand me to give up everything I have, I would like to know, to whom I should give it all? Please tell, who are the people that you think need it?
I don't demand it, the Book does. But you might want to be much less concerned about WHO gets all of your possessions, and be MORE concerned with just giving them up to please Jesus, right?

According to "Luke", Jesus tells His would-be disciples to give up all possessions, if they consider themselves disciples.

So, do you consider yourself a disciple? If so, maybe Jesus wants you to "place your 'money' where your mouth is..." Meaning, your true testament to 'faith' would be to give up all, verses the opposite. (i.e.) -- By retaining and/or gaining wealth / possessions.

So, are you going to give up all possessions to demonstrate your faith to Jesus, or not? Simple question...

EDIT: In other words, and in a nutshell... <"Possessions" are a distraction>. Are you going to get rid of them, or not?.?.?.?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #152

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Diogenes wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:15 pm Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
Well consider that our world does end soon, for each of us the end is not very far away.

When we read the Bible God is speaking to us - individually - specifically to each one of us.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #153

Post by Clownboat »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:34 am Tcg's #126 "That they do what you claim they don't." and (as I had to rebut) aside from your strawmanning on this into an accusation that this was JW doctrine or policy. That's not (as I said above) the point and your persistent attempts at evasion does your case no good at all.
Ya, but, but, but... it's not doctrine is strawman as you said and seems to seek to evade from the information that was provided.
The irony of it all is that the evasion is taking place in an attempt to cover up the misdeeds committed within the JW system by offering up this strawman.
(Don't look at these misdeeds, it's not doctrine to rape children after all is surely covering up for the misdeeds).

There is no need for a defense IMO. We have good and bad humans. Being a JW matters not, therefore molestations within the JW community should be expected sadly. They are just human after all, no different than our Muslim, Catholic or atheist neighbors so there is no reason to assume they would be immune from such evils.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #154

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Clownboat wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:56 pm
The irony of it all is that the evasion is taking place in an attempt to cover up the misdeeds committed within the JW system ....
Are you suggesting I have not admitted such crimes do sadly happen within the organisation?


Do Jehovahs Witnesses claim their organisation is entirely free of child sexual abuse?
viewtopic.php?p=1077405#p1077405







To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHILD ABUSE and ...SEXUAL IMMORALITY,
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri May 13, 2022 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #155

Post by Clownboat »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:36 pm When we read the Bible God is speaking to us - individually - specifically to each one of us.
Sorry, that is just your imagination, because how one reads the Bible is no different then how one reads any other book. You can pretend a god is speaking to you, like how a good Muslim would when reading the Quran, but pretend does not change reality.

Probably a good faith bolster though to make such a blanket claim here. So bolster your faith away if it truly helps. Evangelizing on the streets always helped my faith, but to each their own.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #156

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #154]

If one was a sexual predator they could hardly find a safer harbour than within the JWs. One would just have to ensure that the victim was the only witness, the logical practice anyway one would expect, and then simply deny any involvement when interrogated. The JW approach to such misdemeanors along with the two-witness rule make victims less likely to report abuse under that system, resulting in the predator almost having free rein to do as they please. Accounts from victims show that when abuse is reported they are the ones who suffer the consequences while the organisation strives to keep any dirt from soiling their record. It is these kinds of religious organisations that are pushing me from simple atheism to anti-theism.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #157

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brunumb wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:49 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #154]

If one was a sexual predator they could hardly find a safer harbour other than within the JWs. One would just have to ensure that the victim was the only witness, the logical practice anyway one would expect, and then simply deny any involvement when interrogated.
If you are suggesting that....
(a) Jehovah's Witness ecclesiastical policies result in elevated numbers of sexual abuse cases and/or

(b) the Jehovahs Witness policy requires child sexual abuse be personally witnesses by at least two individuals before any allegations it be reported to law enforcement agences
...that is completely FALSE.
NOTE: While no organisation can claim to be able to perfectly ensure all individuals respect guidelines (and mistakes in policy and/or implementation have been made in the past), to insinuate that Jehovah's Witnesses systematically fail to take sexual abuse of children seriously, blame or sanction the victims or discouraged reporting abuse is unfounded slander.
JW

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Have any legal entities established that the Jehovah's Witnesses systematically seek to "cover up" child sexual abuse cases at the highest level and amongst their membership?
viewtopic.php?p=914050#p914050
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHILD ABUSE and ...SEXUAL IMMORALITY,
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #158

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Clownboat wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:56 pm but... it's not doctrine[/i] is strawman ....
I don't think it is. There seem to be some individuals in this thread , that seem to be indicating that there is something in the Jehovah's Witnesses RULES as in, published policies and guidelines, that either direct members not to report crimes to law enforcement agencies or require they only do so if the act has been witnesses by two or more adults.

brunumb wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:49 pm The JW approach to such misdemeanors along with the two-witness rule make victims less likely to report abuse ...
Miles wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:17 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:49 pm
Diogenes wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:59 pm ... the JW's don't report unless their criminal member confesses. This directly violates the statutory obligation to report abuse when the victim alone reports it.
Are you claiming that it is official Jehovahs Witness policy that their members NOT report allegations or suspicions of child sexual abuse to the proper authorities unless the abuse is personally witnessed by two individuals or a confession obtained ?
Seems to be the case. [...]




Since it is proving to difficult to get such individuals to answer any specific questions regarding their insinuations, it is difficult to address misunderstandings in this regard, short of direction them to read the facts.
FURTHER READING :




What are the published Jehovah's Witnesse Child Protection Policies ? Jehovah's Witnesses' Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal- ... rotection/
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHILD ABUSE and ...SEXUAL IMMORALITY,
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #159

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Clownboat wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:56 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:34 am Tcg's #126 "That they do what you claim they don't." and (as I had to rebut) aside from your strawmanning on this into an accusation that this was JW doctrine or policy. That's not (as I said above) the point and your persistent attempts at evasion does your case no good at all.
Ya, but, but, but... it's not doctrine is strawman as you said and seems to seek to evade from the information that was provided.
The irony of it all is that the evasion is taking place in an attempt to cover up the misdeeds committed within the JW system by offering up this strawman.
(Don't look at these misdeeds, it's not doctrine to rape children after all is surely covering up for the misdeeds).

There is no need for a defense IMO. We have good and bad humans. Being a JW matters not, therefore molestations within the JW community should be expected sadly. They are just human after all, no different than our Muslim, Catholic or atheist neighbors so there is no reason to assume they would be immune from such evils.
I get that - one organisation has as many saints and sinners as any other. But the point is that:

(a) don't we expect better from a religious organisation?

(b) shouldn't they be as subject to the law as any other?

If, of course, the allegations are true. They have the same rights as any other (innocent until proven guilty) but should be as subject to law as any other. No secrecy, no cover - ups or religious immunity.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:33 pm
Clownboat wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:56 pm but... it's not doctrine[/i] is strawman ....
I don't think it is. There seem to be some individuals in this thread , that seem to be indicating that there is something in the Jehovah's Witnesses RULES as in, published policies and guidelines, that either direct members not to report crimes to law enforcement agencies or require they only do so if the act has been witnesses by two or more adults.
brunumb wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:49 pm The JW approach to such misdemeanors along with the two-witness rule make victims less likely to report abuse ...
Miles wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:17 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:49 pm
Diogenes wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:59 pm ... the JW's don't report unless their criminal member confesses. This directly violates the statutory obligation to report abuse when the victim alone reports it.
Are you claiming that it is official Jehovahs Witness policy that their members NOT report allegations or suspicions of child sexual abuse to the proper authorities unless the abuse is personally witnessed by two individuals or a confession obtained ?
Seems to be the case. [...]




Since it is proving to difficult to get such individuals to answer any specific questions regarding their insinuations, it is difficult to address misunderstandings in this regard, short of direction them to read the facts.
FURTHER READING :




What are the published Jehovah's Witnesse Child Protection Policies ? Jehovah's Witnesses' Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal- ... rotection/
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHILD ABUSE and ...SEXUAL IMMORALITY,
What is clear is that you are saying that there are going to be one or two bad apples, but (aside the red herring of it not being doctrine or written policy, which is not the argument) the accusation is that it gets covered up which would be why no study has shown that the accusations are true. Also I have heard the 'policy' that two witnesses are needed before an allegation is taken seriously. You deny that or at least challenge us to prove it.

The fact is that the accusations have been made and the suppression, intimidation, coercion and silencing has been described in detail and it can't be dismissed though evasions and red herrings like 'it isn't doctrine' can.

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Back on track Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #160

Post by Diogenes »

As the OP suggests, this thread is about why the church does not practice poverty and instead preaches the 'prosperity gospel' in conjunction with the failed apocalyptic prophesies in the synoptic gospels. It is NOT (well, it's not supposed to be) about Jehovah's Witnesses and child abuse. A separate topic can be started on that subject. I apologize for my own part in this topic getting off track. I know it's easy and fun to bash JW's but it's an unhappy and divisive distraction.
Last edited by Diogenes on Sun May 15, 2022 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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