The Central Problem with Christianity

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Diogenes
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The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #181

Post by POI »

Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:22 pm
POI wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:14 pm
Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:05 pm Jesus required his direct followers to leave their riches behind...otherwise they would be a hindrance to his campaigns. It was advice to those who went with him, and it showed the balanced view a Christian must have about riches. Jesus was not opposed to honest possessions.
This would mean Jesus changes His "moral standards". Is this what you are saying?

Further, The title of this section reads "The Cost of Being a Disciple", NOT "The Cost of Being a Direct Disciple" :)
It doesn't matter what you think, you don't really mind ... Even so: Jesus was a real person, talking to real persons, besides all we, modern Christians, can read in his words.

What he said to the Pharisees was different from what he said to the common Jews, and from what he said to his disciples. Does that mean "he changes his moral standards"? It's a ridiculous conclusion, but it's normal for people who are looking to debate for the sake of debate, and they end up losing their common sense.
*chuckle*

Let's test common sense, shall we?

Sounds like He was giving the same advice to all who simply inquired, I'm willing to bet the requirements for salvation are the same for the ones who do not ask (i.e.):

(Matt. 19) -- "16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]” 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.

Giving up possessions, looks to be held in the same company as all other requirements. Sure, you can say 'possessions' only pertained to followers of him physically, while He was alive.... But, this would call into question all the other requirements expressed....

You, being a "JW" and all, must think this expression is even more-so 'powerful'. Why? You believe there will be some sort of "top tier 144K" and all...
Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:22 pm This is my final answer to you.
I've read this before...
Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:22 pmI do not have your same motivation when I enter here to analyze biblical matters.
My motivation is to do what the title suggests "debating Christianity". I am analyzing Bible matters. And I find that this topic looks to be in conflict with your beliefs. You wish to 'rationalize away' the topic accordingly, so that you can sleep at night. Whatever gets you through, I guess?
Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:22 pm 1) leaving the riches behind has nothing to do with "moral standards".
Yes is does.
Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:22 pm
2) We, Jehovah's Witnesses, don't preach any "prosperity gospel".
I did not say you did. But Jesus is against possessions. And you own many of them. What do you plan on doing about it?

ta-ta, for now...
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"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #182

Post by Eloi »

Are you trying to harass me?

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #183

Post by POI »

Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:12 pm Are you trying to harass me?
Eloi (post #180) "This is my final answer to you."

POI (post #181) "I've read this before"

So I have to ask, are you really done responding to my posts, or not? Seems like you aren't; or are you? Quite confusing...

Before I answer this ridiculous question, first answer me this... Why attempt to insult my 'common sense', and not expect some type of response -- which was actually quite civil, quite frankly?

Further, since you are still answering me, why not just continue the given debate, via post 181?

And no, I am not "harassing" you. I'm responding to your voluntary responses :)

So what do you say, do you have a response for my last post to you (181), or not?
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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #184

Post by Eloi »

I am putting you in my ignore list. Now get another job.
Good bye.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #185

Post by POI »

Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:27 pm I am putting you in my ignore list. Now get another job.
Good bye.
I reckon some topics hit a little too close to home.

Besides, you can ignore me if you like. I'm aware that in a debate, one side hardly changes their core position, especially in (religion or politics). These responses are more-so for the ones reading, on the sidelines. By the way, not to sound juvenile, but you engaged my responses first. Hence, not sure why you would accuse me of "harassment"? And when you find you do not have a logical response, you run. That's okay. I do not blame you.

Good day.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #186

Post by oldbadger »

Prosperity? Meh....

Matthew:- {6:19} Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth,
where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break
through and steal: {6:20} But lay up for yourselves
treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth
corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
{6:21} For where your treasure is, there will your heart be
also.

Jesus had no time for those who keep more than they need.
Jesus was definitely against unreasonable wealth and unreasonable poverty.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #187

Post by brunumb »

There is a mind boggling amount of wealth accumulated in Christian institutions around the world. Instead of giving it away to help the needy there is a strong tendency to cling on to it for dear life and work even harder to accumulate more. I don't think they give a toss about what Jesus taught in that regard.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #188

Post by oldbadger »

brunumb wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:12 pm There is a mind boggling amount of wealth accumulated in Christian institutions around the world. Instead of giving it away to help the needy there is a strong tendency to cling on to it for dear life and work even harder to accumulate more. I don't think they give a toss about what Jesus taught in that regard.
Sadly...yes.
I've often mentioned the poor-laws of the Old Testament, and never yet has a Christian acknowledged these, more usually a 'What?!'
And when shown their response will have at least one 'but' within it.
'Yeah...but!' :)

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #189

Post by oldbadger »

Diogenes wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:15 pm Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
__ Matthew 6:19-20
I don't think that Jesus was saying the same 'things' as Paul, so I would prefer to comment about Jesus.

I think that Jesus was talking about 'their' world to end, a World run by a greedy, self-centred, hypocritical and corrupt priesthood beneath and trying to copy the cultures of a pagan occupation.
But 'yes', he certainly didn't believe in unreasonable wealth in the midst of such massive unreasonable poverty.
He said so, but like you, I'll wait to be asked by any who do not know the scriptures about that.

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Re: The Central Problem with Christianity

Post #190

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:27 pm I am putting you in my ignore list. Now get another job.
Good bye.
:D Thank you. I love it. What a perfect exhibition of engineering an excuse to Flounce and then running away with the Last Words of 'no use talking to the closed minded'.

But nobody is fooled. You are running away because you can't win. You think you won or scraped a draw at least? You damage your own reputation and that of the Faith you are arguing for. And how many times have I seen that?

Mind, I did it myself on the Exodus discussion, but I couldn't waste my time and have to trust that the evidence presented would be seen as no evidence. Here, you ought to have made an argument or admit that you have none. Instead you tried to start a fight and then ran away.

It will do you no good. If you don't show up again you have been beaten. If you do, you will have equally tough arguments to face.

Oh, and if any well meaning but misguided poster thinks this is a personal attack, it isn't; it is exposing futile if not fraudulent methods of debate, of which I have to say the theist side display many, many examples.

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