How near was the time?

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Athetotheist
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How near was the time?

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Post by Athetotheist »

"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?

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Re: How near was the time?

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Post by brunumb »

POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:43 am A) You failed to adequately answer my prior response. Does God know all, or not? Please remember what you stated in post 36. "nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur"
:? Reading your post it struck me that if there is no guarantee that what is prophesied will actually occur, then what makes it a prophesy? Throw enough mud at the wall and hope that some will stick?
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Re: How near was the time?

Post #42

Post by POI »

brunumb wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:27 am
POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:43 am A) You failed to adequately answer my prior response. Does God know all, or not? Please remember what you stated in post 36. "nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur"
:? Reading your post it struck me that if there is no guarantee that what is prophesied will actually occur, then what makes it a prophesy? Throw enough mud at the wall and hope that some will stick?
Yup.
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Re: How near was the time?

Post #43

Post by Athetotheist »

POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:43 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:50 pm [Replying to POI in post #37
The Verse below does not state -- "if you are not careful, this will happen" I.E:

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
Not only that, but there's also this declaration:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...." (Rev. 1:1)
A) You failed to adequately answer my prior response. Does God know all, or not? Please remember what you stated in post 36. "nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur"

B) Is Jesus going to return, or not? If so, when? How much suffrage is sufficient before He comes to reign 'justice'?
Oops.....looks like you got a little confused here. Post 36 wasn't mine.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #44

Post by POI »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:29 am
POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:43 am
Athetotheist wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:50 pm [Replying to POI in post #37
The Verse below does not state -- "if you are not careful, this will happen" I.E:

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
Not only that, but there's also this declaration:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...." (Rev. 1:1)
A) You failed to adequately answer my prior response. Does God know all, or not? Please remember what you stated in post 36. "nor is there any guarantee that what is prophesized will actually occur"

B) Is Jesus going to return, or not? If so, when? How much suffrage is sufficient before He comes to reign 'justice'?
Oops.....looks like you got a little confused here. Post 36 wasn't mine.
Oops! Sorry. My bad.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #45

Post by theophile »

POI wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:58 pm I noticed you left 'scientists' out of the equation this time around. I would assume you believe God knows all, and that the 'prophets' are the inspired teachers of God. Assuming you do, then your point here is meaningless. However, if God does not know all, and has to rely upon discovery, or play the wait-and-see-game, like the field of 'science', then why call Him God?
Of what relevance is science to the discussion? You keep bringing it in, and I have no issue with what you say about it. My only issue is what you say about biblical prophecy. To be clear, I'm not saying biblical prophecy is scientific, if that's what you think. I've only said that it has a rational basis and that there is evidence for it. And that it's not what you're making it out to be, i.e., prediction of what's actually going to occur based on divine foreknowledge.

But there's a lot going on here so it may be helpful to break down prophecy a bit more versus the short, cryptic posts I've been giving. To that end, I think there are at least 4 types of prophecy in the bible that we should distinguish, each with a different basis. To my earlier suggestion, it's all in the context of calling out injustice, and helping bring justice into the world, i.e., warning us to change our ways...

Type 1: Sometimes prophecy occurs pre-injustice in order to prevent it. Like when God tells Adam he will die if he eats from the tree (like it or not, that is prophecy). Or later in Gen 3 when God says how hard life is now going to be for Adam and Eve, how the earth will resist them, etc., etc. In such cases, the prophecy is based on common sense reasons and related evidence (/knowledge of human nature). Like, God knows Adam and Eve are immature in Gen 2 and likely can't handle knowledge of good and evil; hence God warns them (with prophecy) to keep away.

Type 2: Sometimes prophecy occurs during the time of injustice, and warns of a coming justice to get us to change our ways. I would argue this is the dominant mode of biblical prophecy considering, say, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. who deploy it at scale. In such cases, the prophecy is based on God's words, sure (see Type 3), but more importantly on the same kind of common sense reasoning as Type 1. i.e., God (/the prophet) sees the likely outcome of our current actions / path, and calls out the coming storm (be it of natural consequence or the intervention of an actual judge). (This is why I brought in today's 'prophets' of climate change. They see the likely outcome of the path we're on and have been calling us out for decades to change our ways. The fact that science has built up a massive pile of evidence to back up these calls only adds fuel to the fire -- it doesn't mean they're playing a different game.)

Type 3: Sometimes justice has already come and has given a decree to the unjust: like when God tells Jonah to tell Nineveh they have 40 days until they'll be destroyed. Nineveh repents of course and it never comes to pass, but this is the type of biblical prophecy that most closely predicts what's actually going to occur (not that I think those events ever actually happened, of course). Other famous examples being the flood and God's freeing Israel from Egypt. In such cases, the prophecy is based on the actual power and word of the judge, and the judge following through on their decree. Again, it is not foreknowledge of what will happen but rather statement of what the judge is going to do. (In a contemporary example, it is like the West telling Russia what will happen if Russia crosses a certain line.)

Type 4: Sometimes the prophecy is of some idealized end where justice finally reigns supreme, everyone gets their due, and the darkness is destroyed. While that end is always near (could happen any second), and is always happening (albeit only in fleeting moments here and there), it is what God and all the prophets are all ultimately working towards. As you say:

"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."

This is the kind of prophecy with the least basis. It is more a matter of faith and hope that gives rise to these words, i.e., that over an infinite timeline God will ultimately be victorious and justice will reign supreme.

To your other questions, no, I don't believe God is all-knowing. Nor do I believe God is omnipotent or anything like that. Such notions have highly questionable basis in the bible and are later theological constructs.

So as to what makes God God (which is to say worthy of our worship, trust, etc.), it's not because God can do magic tricks like tell the future. Or make rocks so heavy that not even God can lift them. Rather it's because of what God calls for, and works for on earth. Justice for example. And life more broadly.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #46

Post by Eloi »

brunumb wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:38 am
Eloi wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:02 am Yes, I trust the word of God more than the word of man.
Where do you get your word of God? It can't be from the Bible as that is clearly the work of men.
Good question: why do I/we consider the Bible "the word of God"?
There should be a thread about it ... I'll check.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #47

Post by POI »

theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:56 am This is the kind of prophecy with the least basis. It is more a matter of faith and hope that gives rise to these words, i.e., that over an infinite timeline God will ultimately be victorious and justice will reign supreme.
But the question still remains... IS Jesus going to ultimately return and restore "justice" at some point, or not? And if so, why apply 'faith/hope/trust' to this ultimate conclusion? Meaning, what exactly has compelled your 'faith' that this conclusion is someday coming?

And further still, what the heck is He waiting for?
theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:56 am To your other questions, no, I don't believe God is all-knowing. Nor do I believe God is omnipotent or anything like that. Such notions have highly questionable basis in the bible and are later theological constructs.
Well, I would agree that the stories written about God do not paint Him in a much favorable light. Quite frankly, He appears to be a clumsy mess. Which begs the question, why worship Him above all else?

1. Is it because this is what He commands, or else? (via a compulsory proposition)
2. Or is it because you know someday He is going to 'restore justice', (as your prior response seems to allude to)? If this is the option, knowing He is not a perfect Being, how do you know His 'brand' of justice will align with yours?
3. Another reason?
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Re: How near was the time?

Post #48

Post by theophile »

POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:22 am
theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:56 am This is the kind of prophecy with the least basis. It is more a matter of faith and hope that gives rise to these words, i.e., that over an infinite timeline God will ultimately be victorious and justice will reign supreme.
But the question still remains... IS Jesus going to ultimately return and restore "justice" at some point, or not? And if so, why apply 'faith/hope/trust' to this ultimate conclusion? Meaning, what exactly has compelled your 'faith' that this conclusion is someday coming
It's the nature of God. It's because God is of a nature that can never really die. A spiritual nature. Less some all-powerful being and more along the lines of a movement (like a wind, carrying a word, which is how God first appears in Gen 1). Think something like 'Me Too' that the world once got caught up in, that we could join if we wanted, or reboot even, and give our power to.

The point is God's power can wax and wane over time, and God may have no real power at all. But Jesus' job, I would argue, is to bring everything under the sun into this movement, to unite everything in the spirit and bring it all back to God, so that God is at last all-in-all / all-powerful and able to do the things described. Like conquer death and bring justice to the world.

So the reason I have faith/hope is because, given an infinite amount of time, and because God can never really die, there is at least a chance that this movement will complete, and God will have the power. That chance is enough for me.
POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:22 am
theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:56 am To your other questions, no, I don't believe God is all-knowing. Nor do I believe God is omnipotent or anything like that. Such notions have highly questionable basis in the bible and are later theological constructs.
Well, I would agree that the stories written about God do not paint Him in a much favorable light. Quite frankly, He appears to be a clumsy mess. Which begs the question, why worship Him above all else?

1. Is it because this is what He commands, or else? (via a compulsory proposition)
2. Or is it because you know someday He is going to 'restore justice', (as your prior response seems to allude to)? If this is the option, knowing He is not a perfect Being, how do you know His 'brand' of justice will align with yours?
3. Another reason?
Worship God because of what God calls for, and works for in the world. Because of the Word behind the movement. Which speaks on behalf of things like justice, and life.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #49

Post by POI »

theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:02 pm --- God may have no real power at all.

--- God is at last all-in-all / all-powerful and able to do the things described.
This assertion: "God may have no real power at all" conflicts with this assertion: "God is at last all-in-all / all-powerful and able to do the things described."
theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:02 pmLike conquer death and bring justice to the world.
After it is established as to whether or not God is all-powerful, and assuming you clarify that He is all-powerful, what the heck is He waiting for?

And in the mean time, we see perpetual suffrage abound. Why not just stop such suffrage?
theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:02 pm
POI wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:22 am
theophile wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:56 am To your other questions, no, I don't believe God is all-knowing. Nor do I believe God is omnipotent or anything like that. Such notions have highly questionable basis in the bible and are later theological constructs.
Well, I would agree that the stories written about God do not paint Him in a much favorable light. Quite frankly, He appears to be a clumsy mess. Which begs the question, why worship Him above all else?

1) Is it because this is what He commands, or else? (via a compulsory proposition)
2) Or is it because you know someday He is going to 'restore justice', (as your prior response seems to allude to)? If this is the option, knowing He is not a perfect Being, how do you know His 'brand' of justice will align with yours?
3) Another reason?
Worship God because of what God calls for, and works for in the world. Because of the Word behind the movement. Which speaks on behalf of things like justice, and life.
Looks like your response aligns with both 1) and 2) above. As a follow-up, I now ask?

1) Would a truly 'loving' God offer such a compulsory proposition?
2) How do you know God's brand of "justice" aligns with yours?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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