How near was the time?

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Athetotheist
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How near was the time?

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #11

Post by Athetotheist »

theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:35 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:28 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
If the end times are an "always-the-case kind of thing", why does verse 11 call for an end to evangelism?

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
So that they can be judged and their fate decided (when the man comes around). Life or death, per my post above, and what the natural outcome of their action is.
So everyone was to be left to judgement for the last 1,900 years?

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #12

Post by POI »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:59 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:35 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:28 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
If the end times are an "always-the-case kind of thing", why does verse 11 call for an end to evangelism?

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
So that they can be judged and their fate decided (when the man comes around). Life or death, per my post above, and what the natural outcome of their action is.
So everyone was to be left to judgement for the last 1,900 years?
I predict more hoop-jumping to come...
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"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #13

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
Let's just have a look at the scroll. I'm sure we can sort it out from there.
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Re: How near was the time?

Post #14

Post by theophile »

POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:52 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 pm
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:49 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
Please define prophetic? I don't mean simply copying/pasting a quick definition found on the internet, but please explain prophecy? When reading the Bible, it looks as though the Bible attempts to make many future predictions. BUT, are any of these prophetic pronouncements accurately explained, with enough detail; as to not chalk it up to nothing more than somewhat vague and unspecific pronouncements -- which can be interpreted in multiple direction(s)? You know, like reading Nostradamus, or going to your nearest fortune teller, or calling the psychic network?
'Prophetic' is prediction of the natural outcome of an action. It is essentially common sense. e.g., Adam / Israel, if you act this way, then judgment and death will come upon you. It's not saying Adam / Israel will die because of that specific action, but that the action itself tends towards death. It is the natural outcome and can be predicted (prophetically). (Like saying to a child, "if you touch that, you're gonna get burned...")

The prophets of the bible predict an approaching justice / death just as Revelation predicts an end time. They are all always already upon us, to my first point. They could happen at any time / they are always near.
Then there looks to be nothing profound or special about this particular set of writings, verses any of the other countless collection(s) of 'predictions'; as aforementioned in my prior response. Anyone can say, 'the end is near', about virtually anything. And when anyone questions you, you can just give the response you gave above ;)
Yes and no. If you're looking for some kind of magical, crystal ball predictions of the future than you're barking up the wrong tree. But if we recognize prophecy more as a call for justice, righteousness, etc., with life and death on the line, then it is incredibly profound / important.

Take a modern equivalent for example. All the scientists / activists who have been calling out climate change and the path we're on are no different from the biblical prophets. Would you say that those 'prophecies' are "nothing profound or special"? I think they are some of the most important voices today and need to be heard / listened to... The fate of the world is on the line...

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #15

Post by theophile »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:59 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:35 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:28 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
If the end times are an "always-the-case kind of thing", why does verse 11 call for an end to evangelism?

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
So that they can be judged and their fate decided (when the man comes around). Life or death, per my post above, and what the natural outcome of their action is.
So everyone was to be left to judgement for the last 1,900 years?
Let me clarify and extend my original suggestion that such events are always near / upon us.

What I mean is that the end, justice, what have you, should not be thought of as some final, climactic event, but as something always on the verge of happening, and, extending that line of thought, as breaking through the present order all the time (even if just for a moment before being swallowed up in darkness again).

To use another musical reference, we are all lovers in a dangerous time and need to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight...

Take the recent unification of the West in support of Ukraine against Russia. That is a moment of breakthrough, and justice coming into the world. Or the 'me too' movement a couple years back.. Or the recognition of same-sex marriage.. Or even small everyday events happening around us all the time.

So no, everyone was not left for judgment the last 1,900 years. Many may have eluded it, and continue to do so, sure, but many have already gotten their due.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #16

Post by TRANSPONDER »

theophile wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:52 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 pm
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:49 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
Please define prophetic? I don't mean simply copying/pasting a quick definition found on the internet, but please explain prophecy? When reading the Bible, it looks as though the Bible attempts to make many future predictions. BUT, are any of these prophetic pronouncements accurately explained, with enough detail; as to not chalk it up to nothing more than somewhat vague and unspecific pronouncements -- which can be interpreted in multiple direction(s)? You know, like reading Nostradamus, or going to your nearest fortune teller, or calling the psychic network?
'Prophetic' is prediction of the natural outcome of an action. It is essentially common sense. e.g., Adam / Israel, if you act this way, then judgment and death will come upon you. It's not saying Adam / Israel will die because of that specific action, but that the action itself tends towards death. It is the natural outcome and can be predicted (prophetically). (Like saying to a child, "if you touch that, you're gonna get burned...")

The prophets of the bible predict an approaching justice / death just as Revelation predicts an end time. They are all always already upon us, to my first point. They could happen at any time / they are always near.
Then there looks to be nothing profound or special about this particular set of writings, verses any of the other countless collection(s) of 'predictions'; as aforementioned in my prior response. Anyone can say, 'the end is near', about virtually anything. And when anyone questions you, you can just give the response you gave above ;)
Yes and no. If you're looking for some kind of magical, crystal ball predictions of the future than you're barking up the wrong tree. But if we recognize prophecy more as a call for justice, righteousness, etc., with life and death on the line, then it is incredibly profound / important.

Take a modern equivalent for example. All the scientists / activists who have been calling out climate change and the path we're on are no different from the biblical prophets. Would you say that those 'prophecies' are "nothing profound or special"? I think they are some of the most important voices today and need to be heard / listened to... The fate of the world is on the line...

Oh no, my sides are hurting.... no no, no prophecy coming true, either in the past or the present., no, no. Just take take current problems and the best thoughts of humanity and pretend that it's what the Bible was doing all along and try to give the Bible all the credit.

Nice try, but no cigar.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #17

Post by theophile »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:55 am
theophile wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:52 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 pm
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:49 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
Please define prophetic? I don't mean simply copying/pasting a quick definition found on the internet, but please explain prophecy? When reading the Bible, it looks as though the Bible attempts to make many future predictions. BUT, are any of these prophetic pronouncements accurately explained, with enough detail; as to not chalk it up to nothing more than somewhat vague and unspecific pronouncements -- which can be interpreted in multiple direction(s)? You know, like reading Nostradamus, or going to your nearest fortune teller, or calling the psychic network?
'Prophetic' is prediction of the natural outcome of an action. It is essentially common sense. e.g., Adam / Israel, if you act this way, then judgment and death will come upon you. It's not saying Adam / Israel will die because of that specific action, but that the action itself tends towards death. It is the natural outcome and can be predicted (prophetically). (Like saying to a child, "if you touch that, you're gonna get burned...")

The prophets of the bible predict an approaching justice / death just as Revelation predicts an end time. They are all always already upon us, to my first point. They could happen at any time / they are always near.
Then there looks to be nothing profound or special about this particular set of writings, verses any of the other countless collection(s) of 'predictions'; as aforementioned in my prior response. Anyone can say, 'the end is near', about virtually anything. And when anyone questions you, you can just give the response you gave above ;)
Yes and no. If you're looking for some kind of magical, crystal ball predictions of the future than you're barking up the wrong tree. But if we recognize prophecy more as a call for justice, righteousness, etc., with life and death on the line, then it is incredibly profound / important.

Take a modern equivalent for example. All the scientists / activists who have been calling out climate change and the path we're on are no different from the biblical prophets. Would you say that those 'prophecies' are "nothing profound or special"? I think they are some of the most important voices today and need to be heard / listened to... The fate of the world is on the line...

Oh no, my sides are hurting.... no no, no prophecy coming true, either in the past or the present., no, no. Just take take current problems and the best thoughts of humanity and pretend that it's what the Bible was doing all along and try to give the Bible all the credit.

Nice try, but no cigar.
I never gave the bible credit for anything. Also, how short our memory is / how many times do I have to say that the bible doesn't have a monopoly on truth? Call it by whatever name you want. Put it in whatever wrapper you want. I could care less.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #18

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Ok. If you don't care to refute my argument that is your good right....but it will debunk or refute your case in the eyes of anyone who cares to read.

And I may be mistaken in thinking you to be a Bible - apologist, Christian or even Theist. I don't keep dossiers on everyone and I'm happy to be corrected.

But the point I made apparently stands - there is no reason at all to credit 'Prophecy", whatever you mean by that, with what is happening today or the best thinking we can come up with.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #19

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to theophile in post #14
Take a modern equivalent for example. All the scientists / activists who have been calling out climate change and the path we're on are no different from the biblical prophets. Would you say that those 'prophecies' are "nothing profound or special"?
The difference between science and prophecy is that science leads us along a trail of evidence to what we can expect to happen while, to qualify as an undeniable prophecy, something has to accurately foretell what we wouldn't expect to happen. A scientific prediction can be tested and clearly observed to be either correct or incorrect. The book of Revelation catalogues numerous specific things happening to specific types of people and to the environment. If those specifics can be generalized to the point that anything going on now can be taken to be their fulfillment, it could be argued that there's no such thing as a false prophecy.

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Re: How near was the time?

Post #20

Post by POI »

theophile wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:52 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:30 pm
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:49 pm
theophile wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:36 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 am "Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near."
(Rev. 22:10)

If the words of the prophecy weren't to be sealed up because the time was near, why wasn't it near enough for people who had the scroll still unsealed [around 1,900 years ago] to see the prophecy come about? Wouldn't they have expected to?
What time was near? Food for thought: are the end times described in Revelation like the end of a timeline that we are fast approaching and should expect to see in our lives? Or is it more of an 'always-the-case' kind of thing? As in, the end is always upon us, could happen any second -- like a thief in the night kind of thing?

To your question, I'm sure many people expected something more climactic than what actually happened. If not actual beasts and monsters and such as described. I'm just not sure that's what was meant.
Please define prophetic? I don't mean simply copying/pasting a quick definition found on the internet, but please explain prophecy? When reading the Bible, it looks as though the Bible attempts to make many future predictions. BUT, are any of these prophetic pronouncements accurately explained, with enough detail; as to not chalk it up to nothing more than somewhat vague and unspecific pronouncements -- which can be interpreted in multiple direction(s)? You know, like reading Nostradamus, or going to your nearest fortune teller, or calling the psychic network?
'Prophetic' is prediction of the natural outcome of an action. It is essentially common sense. e.g., Adam / Israel, if you act this way, then judgment and death will come upon you. It's not saying Adam / Israel will die because of that specific action, but that the action itself tends towards death. It is the natural outcome and can be predicted (prophetically). (Like saying to a child, "if you touch that, you're gonna get burned...")

The prophets of the bible predict an approaching justice / death just as Revelation predicts an end time. They are all always already upon us, to my first point. They could happen at any time / they are always near.
Then there looks to be nothing profound or special about this particular set of writings, verses any of the other countless collection(s) of 'predictions'; as aforementioned in my prior response. Anyone can say, 'the end is near', about virtually anything. And when anyone questions you, you can just give the response you gave above ;)
Yes and no. If you're looking for some kind of magical, crystal ball predictions of the future than you're barking up the wrong tree. But if we recognize prophecy more as a call for justice, righteousness, etc., with life and death on the line, then it is incredibly profound / important.
Noted.
theophile wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:11 am Take a modern equivalent for example. All the scientists / activists who have been calling out climate change and the path we're on are no different from the biblical prophets. Would you say that those 'prophecies' are "nothing profound or special"? I think they are some of the most important voices today and need to be heard / listened to... The fate of the world is on the line...
I see a false equivalency here, by trying to equate 'Bible prophecy' with 'science'.

The "Bible's" source information is said to be from divine inspiration, (or messages from God). In other words, God gives such 'foreknowledge' to the authors who write about them. Science does not. There exists no 'Big Book of Science' which becomes canonized and seen as final doctrine; via divine foreknowledge from a singular deity. 'Science' uses the scientific method.

Further, the Bible does not make suggestions that "if you or we continue on the current path we are on, this or that is going to happen." Scientists might make such statements. The Bible instead states what IS going to happen. Often times, such Bible prophecy is given in a very vague sort of way. Thus, I still ask anew... Can't anyone state 'the end is near' about virtually anything which can never really be falsified? Before you offer your answer, please see the given example below.

Example: If Jesus continues not to return, can't Christians just keep saying --- "oh, but He will, and soon. The end, as we know it, is near"
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