Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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POI
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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #41

Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:56 pm Bumping this thread (again)...

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

???
.I don't think that you are going to get an answer. But I might reiterate that it seems that Grace comes by Faith (in Jesus) alone. Nothing else will do it. But sinning (works) can lose you Grace (as Paul recognises). Thus you can't get Grace by Works, but you need Faith and (good) works to keep it.

Works alone will not do it or even non -believers can get to heaven - ahead of believers, if they haven't bought enough indulgencies.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #42

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:51 am
POI wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:56 pm Bumping this thread (again)...

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

???
.I don't think that you are going to get an answer.
Thus far, there really hasn't been one.... Or at least one which is supported by more than just mere assertion alone. And the follow up question remains.... WHY IS THAT? ;)

But I will continue to be persistent... I have faith that some day, a Christian will set the record straight; as to the correct path for salvation.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #43

Post by TRANSPONDER »

In the meantime....keep spinnin' those prayer -wheels lads.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #44

Post by POI »

Bumping this thread (again)...

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

???
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #45

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to POI in post #44]

You might get more results from bumping your head against a brick wall. :P
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #46

Post by TRANSPONDER »

:D It is a familiar Christian apologetic ploy to do a Deep Dive when faced with a problem and resurface a week later making the very same arguments. Dammit, I've known apologists to make the arguments I'd refuted on the previous page. But the surface-skate apologetics theory is one for another time.

I get the impression that our Bible apologists can simply lift their arguments from Lane -Craig or MacDowell. What atheism sorely needs is a think --tank or Source (like Talk origins is for the evolution debate) and atheist apologists should be familiar with the Top Ten Theist apologetics and the top ten refutations. But we ain't organized, folks :D

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #47

Post by bjs1 »

POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 3:52 pm Or, are you ultimately saying God only offers His <grace>, or "undeserved selection", to the individuals who have had a true 'change of heart'?
I would phrase it more along the lines that God gives his undeserved selection to those who will accept it. While there are Christians who disagree with me on this, I would say that God does for His salvation upon people who do not want it. God can only woo, never ravage. I person has to desire change for even the almighty to bring about such a change.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #48

Post by TRANSPONDER »

yeaaah....but the problem there is ...it is irrelevant. Or maybe not. It does perhaps underpin the argument that God valies faith rather than Works. That is, it doesn't matter if you are a good person; it matters if you believe in him or not. you can be as good as you like, but if you aren't ready to 'receive Him' (buy into His religion, if you can pick the right one, or the correct denomination) then it's hell for you, my boy.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #49

Post by POI »

bjs1 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:29 pm
POI wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 3:52 pm Or, are you ultimately saying God only offers His <grace>, or "undeserved selection", to the individuals who have had a true 'change of heart'?
I would phrase it more along the lines that God gives his undeserved selection to those who will accept it. While there are Christians who disagree with me on this, I would say that God does for His salvation upon people who do not want it. God can only woo, never ravage. I person has to desire change for even the almighty to bring about such a change.
If everyone for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #50

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Whatever our pal thinks, I'd say (or repeat) that Paul originally thought (Romans) that Jesusfaith would automatically turn the Faithful into plaster saints (1) but later (Corinthians) he found that was far from the case and, holding up his hands in horror at the parties they were having, warned his converts that sinning could lose you grace (even if good works would not obtain grace, which could only be got through Faith). Mind, there is doing God's will, which may be regarded as a way of obtaining Grace through Works.

(1) I believe Romans is his first work/Thesis, which isn't the mainstream view. It just so happens that on evidence, I'm right. ;)

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