Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1554 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1554 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #71

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:44 pm Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:37 pm You may or may not exactly agree with the given definitions, but let's not fuss over it.....

<grace> = undeserved selection for salvation.
<faith> = hope/trust/confidence/belief
<works> = God's given 'moral' deeds, measurable acts for approval/denial by God
We don't have to fuss over it, but if a definition is not accurate, then the 'logic' might be thrown off as well.
Feel free to amend any definitions of these (3) terms accordingly.

And once we do so, the larger picture is that we look to have (3) categories, as it related to 'salvation.' Agreed?
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:44 pm Why not? Even if no one deserved something, could there not be conditions that need to be met in order to receive something?
Depends on what you mean by 'conditions'? If the human is simply not conceived, then there would be no such human to save -- (by applying His grace). Thus, is being (born or conceived) into existence alone considered the only 'condition'? Is merely being conceived/born -- classify as <works> by the aspiring human to achieve possible salvation?
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:44 pm Why are you mentioning something pleasing or displeasing God, here?
-- If said human accepts His invitation, He will be pleased and apparently grant your salvation -- for which he deems you do not deserve anyways.

-- If said human does not accept His invitation, He will be displeased and not grant your salvation.

According to your beliefs, He set the rules into motion. (i.e.) Accept this free gift, or become/remain unsaved. Classic compulsory proposition... This looks to be <works> based salvation, at minimum? And like I asked, unanswered... What is to become of the billions who do not have the opportunity to accept/reject this free gift?

Hence, are <works> truly required, or not?
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:44 pm If you are dying of thirst, and someone offers you a drink of water, and you do not accept - did you die because the other person was upset, or did you simply die because you did not drink?
This is a false analogy. God is both the rule maker and the rule enforcer. God can create whatever scenario(s) He so chooses. And we are trying to determine what is God's criteria for salvation? Is everyone saved? Or, must humans do something to achieve salvation?

Additional notable unanswered question:

Is "sin" no longer "sin", if such "sin" is then performed by God's chosen for salvation?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3487 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #72

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:47 pm Peace to you,

I'm going to apologize up front, because sometimes I just don't know what you guys mean. Some of you (atheists; agnostics) speak the language of religion far more than I do. I was not raised religious, and I do not always know what you mean when you use certain terms that I never use, myself. You mentioned 'saving grace', but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that.


TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:35 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:58 am Peace to you,
[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #62]

But this is it - behaviour doesn't matter

Behavior does matter.

Judge not, or you will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Be merciful and mercy will be shown you.

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.


Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.


See also sheep and goats parable.


Faith AND deeds. Noah had faith but he also ACTED on that faith, by hearing God and obeying; building the ark and getting ONTO the ark. Abraham had faith, by hearing God and obeying, by leaving the land of his father and coming to the land to which God TOLD him to come.


Peace to you.
Yes, yes it does. It matters here in every day life.
It also matters when it comes to faith, to Christ, to God. As indicated above.


Peace again to you.
:D No need to apologise; I know what I had in mind but I thought I'd better look that up myself. Got Questions org put it like this:

The word grace in the Bible means “unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification” or “God’s benevolence to the undeserving.” Biblically, “saving grace” is the grace of God that saves a person.
Scripture says that grace, the unearned favor of the Lord, is necessary “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight” (Romans 3:20 NASB). The only way to receive God’s saving grace is through faith in Christ: “But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested . . . the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe” (Romans 3:21-22 NASB).


So the point is that Faith alone and not works can get this application to heaven, though no guarantees about you actually getting in. or so I've been assured by some of the Faithful.

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1554 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #73

Post by POI »

Dear Christians,

Salvation comes from:

A) Grace alone
B) Grace by faith/belief alone
C) Grace by works alone
D) Grace by faith/belief and works
E) Other

Please explain the answer given above?

*******************

Thus far, there has been little interaction from the Christian population. Here is where we stand in this thread:

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

Post #71. Tam does not really clarify if the answer is A), B), C), D), or E)?

Here are the topics in which we are to still flesh out...

- Can one truly reconcile 'salvation' with the (3) given categories (grace, faith, works)? I say it cannot be done logically. Grace alone eliminates the necessity for the other (2) topics of "faith" and/or "works". So either God elects everyone - (because no one deserves it anyways), OR no one is elected - (which means grace is not actually provided anyhow), OR God picks using some standard which would be predicated upon the other two categories of <faith> and/or <works>- (which then means He is not electing by grace alone).

- Further, do the stillborns, brain damaged, dead toddlers, etc., receive God's grace, or a free undeserved pass? If so, are the truly blessed the ones who die young, or are unaware of Christianity --- as they are 100% guaranteed to receive salvation?

- If the 'true Christians' are then absolved from 'sin', because they are now saved; but everyone 'sins' until they die, what does that even mean? Is a Christian lie any different than an atheist lie? Aren't both the Christian and the atheist still committing a transgression against God?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #74

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to POI in post #71]

This is a false analogy.

No that was an accurate analogy, even super appropriate if you considered Rev 22:17. I'm not sure how that might factor into your musings.

**

As for grace... I know that I did not earn the gifts given to me; these were gifts given out of mercy and love, and to be used to serve God and his Son and their Kingdom. I know that there are conditions attached to receiving eternal life, and I also know that I fail at times. But when I fail, stumble, fall... I have my Lord to cover me (God provided this cover, again out of love), to cover my sins, to intercede on my behalf. If it depended entirely upon me, how could I possibly say that I earned eternal life?

As for a non-Christian, how could such a one not consider it a gift to be granted life in the Kingdom. If Christ said that the one who believes in Him has eternal life, and more than just these ones are invited into the Kingdom (criteria indicated in the parable of the sheep and the goats), how is that not a gift to such ones? How is that not from God's mercy and love? Grace?

**


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1554 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #75

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm No that was an accurate analogy, even super appropriate if you considered Rev 22:17. I'm not sure how that might factor into your musings.
No, I'm afraid it is not an accurate anology.

According to <you>, God presents an invitation. If you reject the offer, you will be condemned --> (Mark 16:15-16). Again, God is both the rule maker, as well as being the rule enforcer. God makes such rules which please Him. Accepting the rule pleases Him, so He then picks you for salvation. Rejecting such rule displeases Him, so He condemns you.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm As for grace... I know that I did not earn the gifts given to me; these were gifts given out of mercy and love, and to be used to serve God and his Son and their Kingdom. I know that there are conditions attached to receiving eternal life, and I also know that I fail at times. But when I fail, stumble, fall... I have my Lord to cover me (God provided this cover, again out of love), to cover my sins, to intercede on my behalf. If it depended entirely upon me, how could I possibly say that I earned eternal life?
1. <Grace> alone eliminates any 'conditions', especially as they pertain to the other categories of <faith> and/or <works>. So does God then elect everyone, as no one deserves it? If so, then why mention the Commandments or any other acts of <faith> or <works> in the Bible?

2. If <grace> requires 'conditions', then it is no longer <grace> alone. So what then is the metric/rubric/criteria exactly?
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm As for a non-Christian, how could such a one not consider it a gift to be granted life in the Kingdom. If Christ said that the one who believes in Him has eternal life, and more than just these ones are invited into the Kingdom (criteria indicated in the parable of the sheep and the goats), how is that not a gift to such ones? How is that not from God's mercy and love? Grace?
1. What happens to the millions/billions which do not ever receive an offer - (due to infancy death, brain damage, never receiving an offer, etc)? Free <grace> pass?

2. If I accept the gift, do I still need to meet any 'conditions'? And isn't accepting the invitation itself a 'condition', which then nullifies the claim to <grace>?

3. Can a non-christian go to Heaven, via (Matthew 25:31-46)? Does God deem some unbelievers as 'sheep', based upon such spoken deeds? If so, it then AGAIN takes much more than <grace>.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #76

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:10 pm
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm No that was an accurate analogy, even super appropriate if you considered Rev 22:17. I'm not sure how that might factor into your musings.
No, I'm afraid it is not an accurate anology.
I'm afraid you don't get to decide that. It was my analogy for my point.

Perhaps it is just does not fit with what you personally believe?


According to <you>, God presents an invitation.


Sure.
If you reject the offer, you will be condemned --> (Mark 16:15-16).


Just as if you rejected a glass of life-saving water. (Technically you are already condemned - you are already going to die. But here now you are being offered water so that you can live.)
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm As for grace... I know that I did not earn the gifts given to me; these were gifts given out of mercy and love, and to be used to serve God and his Son and their Kingdom. I know that there are conditions attached to receiving eternal life, and I also know that I fail at times. But when I fail, stumble, fall... I have my Lord to cover me (God provided this cover, again out of love), to cover my sins, to intercede on my behalf. If it depended entirely upon me, how could I possibly say that I earned eternal life?
1. Grace alone eliminates any 'conditions', especially as they pertain to the other categories of <faith> and/or <works>.


Apparently it does not. How is there no grace in the above?
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm As for a non-Christian, how could such a one not consider it a gift to be granted life in the Kingdom. If Christ said that the one who believes in Him has eternal life, and more than just these ones are invited into the Kingdom (criteria indicated in the parable of the sheep and the goats), how is that not a gift to such ones? How is that not from God's mercy and love? Grace?
1. What happens to the ones which do not ever receive an offer - (due to infancy death, brain damage, never receiving an offer, etc)? Free <grace> pass?
First... do you not see any grace in the above?

Second... you are assuming such ones never received an offer?

Third... I am not the judge. None of those things you mention prevent someone from receiving eternal life (and God can know someone even before they are born), but I don't know that this means a 'free pass' is granted. Even the very young (or brain-damaged) can reveal who they are in some way. We might not be able to tell, but that does not mean God cannot tell.



2. If I accept the gift, do I still need to meet any 'conditions'? And isn't accepting the invitation itself a 'condition', which then nullifies the claim to <grace>?
If grace is offering a gift to someone who did not earn it, how would accepting that gift nullify the grace that offered it to begin with?
3. Can a non-christian go to Heaven, via (Matthew 25:31-46)? Does God deem some unbelievers as 'sheep', based upon such spoken deeds? If so, it then AGAIN takes much more than <grace>.
A non-Christian can enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life, yes. The sheep (and goats) in this parable are non-believers. The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did (unknowingly) for Christ.

I didn't realize you were asking if ONLY grace was involved.

I think they are connected, especially where faith is a gift. So that it begins with grace, then faith (and from faith comes works).



Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #77

Post by brunumb »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:40 pm If one is a Christian (truly), then one is a member of His Body (which is His Church, His Bride)... and so, one is in Christ.

Were you asking for more than that?
Why use the term "if one is in Christ" if it is just the same as saying "if one is a Christian"? Not sure what the modifier (truly) does. How is His Church different from a church-going Christian and what does being His Bride entail?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3286
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1554 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #78

Post by POI »

Sticky, from post #67:

Dear Tammy,

Thank you for your response(s), thus far... I'm going to let you know, up front, that the laws of logic will not allow you to come to resolve -- in this given quandary. The reason most have not (and/or) will not touch this thread, is because I think they already know this.... Thus far, I commend your "earnesty" and efforts. However, you will soon find, as we continue, frustration and/or abandonment of this thread will ultimately prevail, when attempting to reconcile (a proper conclusion) to this riddle of obtaining 'salvation'.

It's not you, it's logic itself, or the lack-there-of, which keeps this line of questioning unresolved (logically).

As a preface, here is where we stand. Below, I will blanket define these terms, for reference, to streamline the conversation. You may or may not exactly agree with the given definitions, but let's not fuss over it; as we can at least agree there exists (3) categories -- (<grace>, <faith>, <works>).

<grace> = undeserved selection for salvation.
<faith> = hope/trust/confidence/belief
<works> = God's given 'moral' deeds, measurable acts for approval/denial by God
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:56 pm I'm afraid you don't get to decide that. It was my analogy for my point.

Perhaps it is just does not fit with what you personally believe?
If you were to instead present "God's invitation" in parallel with a mafia's boss's presented invitation, I would be more inclined to agree. (i.e.):

Mafia boss - accept my invitation/offer or you will be sorry.
"God" - accept my invitation/offer or you will be sorry.

Both scenarios above support the one offering the invitation (also) determining your outcome.

In your example, the one offering the drink does not (also) determine your outcome, -- "nature" does.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:56 pm As for grace... I know that I did not earn the gifts given to me; these were gifts given out of mercy and love
If this is truly the case, then it does not matter what you do (or) do not do (<faith>/<works>). And yet, the Bible asks for more.

(YOU) Apparently it does not. How is there no grace in the above?

(ME) <Grace> is given, when you do not deserve it. A human, who is asked to accept an invitation, and does not accept, does not deserve it. If this human is then denied <grace>, it is not really <grace> after all; since <grace> is applied to the undeserving. According to God, all humans fall short. It instead appears to be that God offers <conditional grace>? Which then begs a follow-up question. What 'condition(s)' are required to then earn His <conditional grace>?
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm First... do you not see any grace in the above?
You tell me? Do stillborns, dead infant/toddlers, the brain damaged, etc., receive a free pass, or (<unconditional grace> for 'salvation'), or not? Does the Bible say?
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm Second... you are assuming such ones never received an offer?
You can accept God's invitation before birth, at birth, or shortly there-after --- really? One with severe brain damage has the capacity to accept God's invitation --- really?
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm Third... I am not the judge. None of those things you mention prevent someone from receiving eternal life (and God can know someone even before they are born), but I don't know that this means a 'free pass' is granted. Even the very young (or brain-damaged) can reveal who they are in some way. We might not be able to tell, but that does not mean God cannot tell.
Then if god already knows exactly where they are going to end up, before they are even conceived, then just send each individual where they are going to go before they are born. Having many make a pit-stop, in the flesh first here on earth, is just a waste of God's time, as He watches the inevitable.
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm If grace is offering a gift to someone who did not earn it, how would accepting that gift nullify the grace that offered it to begin with?
I already answered this more than once. God only grants <grace>, based up "condition(s)". --- (i.e.) by accepting an invitation, other, other, other? If <grace> requires 'condition(s)' being met, then it is no longer <grace>. It is instead <conditional grace>, at best. Apparently, met 'condition(s)' merits God's deserving reward. True <Grace> would be given to all, since no one apparently deserves selection for salvation. Does everyone receive salvation, since no one really deserves it, or not?
tam wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:38 pm A non-Christian can enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life, yes. The sheep (and goats) in this parable are non-believers. The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did (unknowingly) for Christ.
Then the question AGAIN is, salvation is achieved by?

A) Grace alone
B) Conditional grace by faith/belief alone
C) Conditional grace by works alone
D) Conditional grace by faith/belief and works
E) Other
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #79

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
brunumb wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:48 am
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:40 pm If one is a Christian (truly), then one is a member of His Body (which is His Church, His Bride)... and so, one is in Christ.

Were you asking for more than that?
Why use the term "if one is in Christ" if it is just the same as saying "if one is a Christian"? Not sure what the modifier (truly) does.
I could just say Christian. Saying 'in Christ' just explains a bit more, but I did not mean to cause confusion. I'm glad you asked.
How is His Church different from a church-going Christian and what does being His Bride entail?
The Church is not a place... as in... a place that one goes to on Sundays or on religious holidays (or whatever other day people 'go to church'). The Church IS the Body of Christ, made of the people in Him (made of Christians). It is not a denomination or a building. There is no going TO Church (because one IS the Church)... just as there is no leaving Church (unless one were to leave Christ).

Church, Bride, Body <- these are synonyms.


Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #80

Post by JoeyKnothead »

tam wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:01 pm Peace to you,

...

Peace again to you.
When I get into one of my 'hate me a Christian' moods, here you come with words and a spirit that I know in my heart you mean with all the goodness you can muster in yours.

Though I seldom respond to your posts Miss tam, know that I seek em out, if just to feel your kindness for a spell.

I consider my comments pertinent to the OP cause here you sit just busting full of it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Post Reply