Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #61

Post by POI »

tam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:20 pm Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:20 pm Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Faith versus works is an easy one (faith compels works). Understanding grace - something we are given even though we did not deserve it - can be harder for us to wrap our minds around.

Eternal life is a gift from God. A gift that can be given to both Christians and non-Christians. But it is not something anyone (faith or no faith) has earned so that they could go up to God and demand eternal life. We all do wrong (faith or no faith) and need forgiveness and mercy for those wrongs. The wages of sin is death - and we all sin. But eternal life is a gift from God, from His mercy, His love, His wisdom. Grace. Even faith itself is a gift. So that no one can brag. But we can most certainly be grateful, we can most certainly love because we are loved (and were loved first even).


As to faith verses works:

As James said, faith without works is dead. If faith does not compel one to works, can it really be faith? Granted, the thief on the cross did not have much of an opportunity for works, but he defended Christ (a work) and asked Christ to remember him (also a work, demonstrating his faith... because if he had no faith in Christ, why would he have asked Christ to remember him when He came into His Kingdom?)

(I inserted 'eternal life' in place of heaven, because the Kingdom is upon the earth. I figured you might asking more about eternal life, rather than the location of that life.)


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
If no one deserves salvation, then why does He not just pick no one at all (or) everyone? Assuming He picks some, and not others, what then is His (rubric, measurement, standard)?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #62

Post by TRANSPONDER »

We know what this is - If you sign up to a particular religion, you are eligible to get saved (no guarantees, through) and doctrinal splits means that we can't be sure who is going to saved - though some might say that so long as you believe the core claim, you have as good a chance of being saved as any other professed Christian, so long as the heresy isn't so bad as to be blasphemous.

But this is it - behaviour doesn't matter (so long as you don't embarrass the party so much as to lose your card), but what you believe and how faithfully you believe it as there's a lot of small print about Belief, too.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #63

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:02 pm
tam wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:20 pm Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:20 pm Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Faith versus works is an easy one (faith compels works). Understanding grace - something we are given even though we did not deserve it - can be harder for us to wrap our minds around.

Eternal life is a gift from God. A gift that can be given to both Christians and non-Christians. But it is not something anyone (faith or no faith) has earned so that they could go up to God and demand eternal life. We all do wrong (faith or no faith) and need forgiveness and mercy for those wrongs. The wages of sin is death - and we all sin. But eternal life is a gift from God, from His mercy, His love, His wisdom. Grace. Even faith itself is a gift. So that no one can brag. But we can most certainly be grateful, we can most certainly love because we are loved (and were loved first even).


As to faith verses works:

As James said, faith without works is dead. If faith does not compel one to works, can it really be faith? Granted, the thief on the cross did not have much of an opportunity for works, but he defended Christ (a work) and asked Christ to remember him (also a work, demonstrating his faith... because if he had no faith in Christ, why would he have asked Christ to remember him when He came into His Kingdom?)

(I inserted 'eternal life' in place of heaven, because the Kingdom is upon the earth. I figured you might asking more about eternal life, rather than the location of that life.)


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
If no one deserves salvation, then why does He not just pick no one at all (or) everyone?


The invitation to come is open.
Assuming He picks some, and not others, what then is His (rubric, measurement, standard)?
To enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life?

If one is in Christ, then one has already entered. And there is no judgment for that one, because His blood covers them. (including, covering their sins)

If one is not in Christ:

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #64

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #62]

But this is it - behaviour doesn't matter

Behavior does matter.

Judge not, or you will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Be merciful and mercy will be shown you.

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.


Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.


See also sheep and goats parable.


Faith AND deeds. Noah had faith but he also ACTED on that faith, by hearing God and obeying; building the ark and getting ONTO the ark. Abraham had faith, by hearing God and obeying, by leaving the land of his father and coming to the land to which God TOLD him to come.


Peace to you.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #65

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:58 am Peace to you,
[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #62]

But this is it - behaviour doesn't matter

Behavior does matter.

Judge not, or you will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Be merciful and mercy will be shown you.

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.


Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.


See also sheep and goats parable.


Faith AND deeds. Noah had faith but he also ACTED on that faith, by hearing God and obeying; building the ark and getting ONTO the ark. Abraham had faith, by hearing God and obeying, by leaving the land of his father and coming to the land to which God TOLD him to come.


Peace to you.
Yes, yes it does. It matters here in every day life. It may even matter (as Paul came to see) that it matters so as not to lose Grace. But the point is that (so far as I can see) deeds, good behaviour - will do nothing to earn Saving grace,. That comes only from Faith -belief in Jesus and hoping that God's going to be in a good mood.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #66

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

I'm going to apologize up front, because sometimes I just don't know what you guys mean. Some of you (atheists; agnostics) speak the language of religion far more than I do. I was not raised religious, and I do not always know what you mean when you use certain terms that I never use, myself. You mentioned 'saving grace', but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that.


TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:35 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:58 am Peace to you,
[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #62]

But this is it - behaviour doesn't matter

Behavior does matter.

Judge not, or you will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Be merciful and mercy will be shown you.

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.


Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.


See also sheep and goats parable.


Faith AND deeds. Noah had faith but he also ACTED on that faith, by hearing God and obeying; building the ark and getting ONTO the ark. Abraham had faith, by hearing God and obeying, by leaving the land of his father and coming to the land to which God TOLD him to come.


Peace to you.
Yes, yes it does. It matters here in every day life.
It also matters when it comes to faith, to Christ, to God. As indicated above.


Peace again to you.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #67

Post by POI »

Dear Tammy,

Thank you for your response(s), thus far... I'm going to let you know, up front, that the laws of logic will not allow you to come to resolve -- in this given quandary. The reason most have not (and/or) will not touch this thread, is because I think they already know this.... Thus far, I commend your "earnesty" and efforts. However, you will soon find, as we continue, frustration and/or abandonment of this thread will ultimately prevail, when attempting to reconcile (a proper conclusion) to this riddle of obtaining 'salvation'.

It's not you, it's logic itself, or the lack-there-of, which keeps this line of questioning unresolved (logically).

As a preface, here is where we stand. Below, I will blanket define these terms, for reference, to streamline the conversation. You may or may not exactly agree with the given definitions, but let's not fuss over it.....

<grace> = undeserved selection for salvation.
<faith> = hope/trust/confidence/belief
<works> = God's given 'moral' deeds, measurable acts for approval/denial by God

Now off we go, anew, below :)
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:47 am The invitation to come is open.
1). Contraction detected.... If no one deserves His <grace>, then asking for <works> would not matter. Accepting an invitation would please him. Rejecting an invitation would upset Him. Is <works> required for salvation, or not?

2). Furthermore, how about for the millions/billions who feel they were never offered an invitation (i.e.) stillborns, dying too young, born with brain damage, brought up in another religion, never hearing of this religion, not believing there exists a true invitation presented, etc... Do these individuals get a free pass, as God's <grace> blanket covers all these scenarios anyways?
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:47 am To enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life? If one is in Christ, then one has already entered. And there is no judgment for that one, because His blood covers them. (including, covering their sins)
This underlined response contradicts God's <grace>. The underlined response above indicates the need for <faith> and/or <works>.

Further, the ones He selects are then absolved from 'sin'... Which begs more questions, then to provide sensible answers, Why? God's elect, while on earth, will still commit 'sin' --- as humans are not perfect. Thus, I ask... Is a christian, who still lies, better than an atheist, who commits the same lie?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #68

Post by brunumb »

tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:47 pm I'm going to apologize up front, because sometimes I just don't know what you guys mean. Some of you (atheists; agnostics) speak the language of religion far more than I do. I was not raised religious, and I do not always know what you mean when you use certain terms that I never use, myself. You mentioned 'saving grace', but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that.
I'm glad you brought that up because I for one do not know precisely what you mean when you say "If one is in Christ".
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #69

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
brunumb wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:56 pm
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:47 pm I'm going to apologize up front, because sometimes I just don't know what you guys mean. Some of you (atheists; agnostics) speak the language of religion far more than I do. I was not raised religious, and I do not always know what you mean when you use certain terms that I never use, myself. You mentioned 'saving grace', but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that.
I'm glad you brought that up because I for one do not know precisely what you mean when you say "If one is in Christ".
I just mean a Christian (truly).

If one is a Christian (truly), then one is a member of His Body (which is His Church, His Bride)... and so, one is in Christ.

Were you asking for more than that?
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #70

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
POI wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:37 pm You may or may not exactly agree with the given definitions, but let's not fuss over it.....

<grace> = undeserved selection for salvation.
<faith> = hope/trust/confidence/belief
<works> = God's given 'moral' deeds, measurable acts for approval/denial by God
We don't have to fuss over it, but if a definition is not accurate, then the 'logic' might be thrown off as well.
tam wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:47 am The invitation to come is open.
1). Contraction detected.... If no one deserves His <grace>, then asking for <works> would not matter.
Why not? Even if no one deserved something, could there not be conditions that need to be met in order to receive something?
Accepting an invitation would please him. Rejecting an invitation would upset Him. Is <works> required for salvation, or not?
Why are you mentioning something pleasing or displeasing God, here?

If you are dying of thirst, and someone offers you a drink of water, and you do not accept - did you die because the other person was upset, or did you simply die because you did not drink?


Peace again to you.
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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