Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #11

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:52 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:40 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:00 am
POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:01 pm
I would agree that the authors of the Bible are the purveyors of confusion.
I would disagree that the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.

POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:01 pm Believer or not, if one objectively reads the NT, one could make a case for conflicting paths to salvation.
Not if one one lets the bible translate itself. One might not necessarily understand everything in scripture but not understanding doesn't equates to confusion. Most atheists I have met cannot explain the origins of the universe but that doesnt mean they live in "confusion". Unless one attempts to impose one's misconceptions where they do not belong, therenis no reason for scripture to be confusing.
I'll start by posing the same question to you, for which I presented to the Christian audience in general:

How does a Christian get to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other


Why ? How would my answers prove your point or disprove my own?
Your prior response:

"Not if one lets the bible translate itself."

So, if 'the Bible translates itself', where does the Bible stand in achieving salvation (i.e.)?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:47 pm
"Not if one lets the bible translate itself."

So, if 'the Bible translates itself', where does the Bible stand in achieving salvation (i.e.)?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other

Why do you ask? Did I mention salvation in my post? What is the point you are trying to make?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #13

Post by Tcg »

POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:52 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:40 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:00 am
POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:01 pm
I would agree that the authors of the Bible are the purveyors of confusion.
I would disagree that the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.

POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:01 pm Believer or not, if one objectively reads the NT, one could make a case for conflicting paths to salvation.
Not if one one lets the bible translate itself. One might not necessarily understand everything in scripture but not understanding doesn't equates to confusion. Most atheists I have met cannot explain the origins of the universe but that doesnt mean they live in "confusion". Unless one attempts to impose one's misconceptions where they do not belong, therenis no reason for scripture to be confusing.
I'll start by posing the same question to you, for which I presented to the Christian audience in general:

How does a Christian get to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other


Why ? How would my answers prove your point or disprove my own?
Your prior response:

"Not if one lets the bible translate itself."

So, if 'the Bible translates itself', where does the Bible stand in achieving salvation (i.e.)?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
This illustrates the problem very well. If one lets the Bible translate itself, what often follows is that one of the options will be picked as the favored interpretation and then all the verses that present a different option will simply be taken as supporting the chosen option even when they don't. If one truly lets the Bible translate itself one would have to conclude that the bible presents a number of conflicting answers to the Bibe's stand on achieving salvation.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #14

Post by Eloi »

Tcg wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:03 pm(...) This illustrates the problem very well. If one lets the Bible translate itself, what often follows is that one of the options will be picked as the favored interpretation and then all the verses that present a different option will simply be taken as supporting the chosen option even when they don't. If one truly lets the Bible translate itself one would have to conclude that the bible presents a number of conflicting answers to the Bibe's stand on achieving salvation.


Tcg
And, you do think so, because ...? Maybe because you already analized the Bible up to that point ...? Or that is just your opinion?

I think that the opinion of someone who has not studied the Bible to the point to understand these matters is of no value to someone who wants to know the truth about what it is all about.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:03 pm
... If one truly lets the Bible translate itself one would have to conclude that the bible presents a number of conflicting answers to the Bibe's stand on achieving salvation.


Tcg
Even if that were true (which I do not believe it is - your own view on the matter is, of course but one of various other possibilities) what has that got to do with "confusion" ? A feeling of confusion lies in the perception of various possibilities rather than the number. There could be a single interpretation and a person would still be confused if he or she doesnt understand it. On the other hand, someone could see a thousand alternative interpretations about the bible (or any other literature), but as long as they were confident about what is correct, there would be no reason to feel confused.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #16

Post by Eloi »

If the supposed biblical conflicts were real, there would be no international community capable of showing biblical coherence in all its content to the point of being able to debate it or show it at the level of interpersonal analysis... There could be no rational explanation based on the Bible itself for those supposed contradictions; however, surprise!!! Here we are the Witnesses to analyze these alleged "conflicts".

How can we help you? 8-)

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #17

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:53 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:47 pm
"Not if one lets the bible translate itself."

So, if 'the Bible translates itself', where does the Bible stand in achieving salvation (i.e.)?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other

Why do you ask? Did I mention salvation in my post? What is the point you are trying to make?
Please allow me to provide part of the OP:

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:23 pm
Please allow me to provide part of the OP:

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

Allow me to provide part of our exchange ...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:00 am
POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:01 pm
I would agree that the authors of the Bible are the purveyors of confusion.
I would disagree [...] the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.



... if you feel my comment is an inappropriate response to your own, feel free to report or ignore it.


Have an excellent day,



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #19

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:25 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:23 pm
Please allow me to provide part of the OP:

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

Allow me to provide part of our exchange ...
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:00 am
POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:01 pm
I would agree that the authors of the Bible are the purveyors of confusion.
I would disagree [...] the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.



... if you feel my comment is an inappropriate response to your own, feel free to report or ignore it.


Have an excellent day,



JW
How about addressing the intent of the OP? You stated "not if one lets the bible translate itself."

So if the 'bible translates itself', where exactly does the Bible stand, in regards to getting to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other

****************

If you care not to actually address the meat and potatoes of this thread, then please stop wasting everyone's time.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #20

Post by POI »

Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:21 pm If the supposed biblical conflicts were real, there would be no international community capable of showing biblical coherence in all its content to the point of being able to debate it or show it at the level of interpersonal analysis... There could be no rational explanation based on the Bible itself for those supposed contradictions; however, surprise!!! Here we are the Witnesses to analyze these alleged "conflicts".

How can we help you? 8-)
Great, then the answer should be easy. How does one achieve salvation, and/or get to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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