Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

Bumping this thread (yet again). Not quite sure why Christians cannot collectively answer this important question?

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

???

[TRANSPONDER]

It shouldn't be that hard for them. I had a look as a few online vids and the talking 'heads were all of the same mind - (saving) Grace is through Faith in Jesus as the savior. Words add nothing and may in fact nullify faith.

I suspect that the Believers are a bit bothered, as doing the good is known to be a big aspect of the religion. But, if none of that matters as it's Faith alone that counts....well it's the problem of the two Corinthians again. If you are saved by Faith alone, do what you like as faith saves you, not works. But it shouldn't be a problem as they know, as did Paul, that works cannot gain you Grace but sinning can lose you grace, if you sin real bad. At least more than a few apologetic prayers and a dollar in the box can put right. Maybe that's the bother, that Grace given freely by God should not be nullified by the actions of a man doing wrong. But clearly that should not be a problem either as God can take away grace as easily as give it.

True some may make life hard for themselves by saying 'once saved, always saved'. But (though this would be brilliant for a deconvert as he's earmarked for heaven even if he is an atheist as he got saved and that stays like a old tibia fracture until the end) it sounds like a logical (or theological) position as untenable as Behe's 'teach alternative theories' which forced him to say that it was also right that we ought to teach astrology and flat earthism in the science class as they are also alternate theories. So, like the finite number of saved that makes nonsense of Christianity, since none of those saved beyond the 70 thousand or whatever it was are going to heaven, Once saved, always save cannot work, and Pail of course realised that Salvation can be lost by sinning even if it cannot be gained by works.

[brunumb]

If you are saved by Faith alone, do what you like as faith saves you, not works.

But then again it's hard to get collection plates filled on faith alone.

[TRANSPONDER]

If you are saved by Faith alone, do what you like as faith saves you, not works.

But then again it's hard to get collection plates filled on faith alone.

Indeed. And the Churches have to find a carrot. Paul in the beautiful, beautiful parable of the two Corinthians 9:6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

I don't recall whether this was supposed to reap worldly gist or would earn you frequent flyer points to heaven. But perhaps it's 'let them guess what they get, so long as they unzip their wallets'.

[POI]

Dear Christians,

Salvation comes from:

A) Grace alone
B) Grace by faith/belief alone
C) Grace by works alone
D) Grace by faith/belief and works
E) Other

Please explain the answer given above?

*******************

Thus far, there has been little interaction from the Christian population. Here is where we stand in this thread:

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

**************************

This is where we stand, thus far....

[TRANSPONDER]

As to baptism, My understanding based on vague hints dropped by various churchbods trying to suck me into religion when I was a kid, is that we are all born sinners and deserving of sin -death before we did anything and the only way out is through Jesus. Thus Jesus is wished on us at baptism before we know anything about it. I won't do too much about my conviction that this is all about trying to get the people under control using the parents as catspaws, but just observe that Baptism into the Church (assuming it's the right one) is supposed to be as good as believing in Jesus until age 7 which is the age at which a kid is old enough to believe.

So clearly here its Grace or proxy grace through being chipped by the church when we are still in diapers that is going to save, and works have nothing to do with it.

I am surprised that the Christian posters here aren't rushing to explain this matter. They can find plenty of time to spend on posting about other things.

[POI]

(Request # quite a lot, and counting)

Dear Christians,

Salvation comes from:

A) Grace alone
B) Grace by faith/belief alone
C) Grace by works alone
D) Grace by faith/belief and works
E) Other

Please explain the answer given above?

*******************

Thus far, there has been little interaction from the Christian population. Here is where we stand in this thread:

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

**************************

This is where we stand, thus far....

[POI]

(Request # quite a lot, and counting)

Dear Christians,

Salvation comes from:

A) Grace alone
B) Grace by faith/belief alone
C) Grace by works alone
D) Grace by faith/belief and works
E) Other

Please explain the answer given above?

*******************

Thus far, there has been little interaction from the Christian population. Here is where we stand in this thread:

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

**************************

This is where we stand, thus far....

[TRANSPONDER]

Oh my goodness, yes. The times I've had variants on 'The evidence is obvious that God is real and atheism is wrong' and we ask for the evidence and we get 'I'm not here to educate you - go and research, yourself'.

Which is why atheists (on former boards) had to refuse links, references and even (optionally) posted videos, and insist that we were not to be sent off researching out the evidence for the other side, and doing their work for them. We often did look up the links or watch the video, though the subsequent demolition of it was ignored, if the video wasn't posted again later on as 'evidence'. But we had to reserve the option to decline directions to 'read this book' or 'watch that video', especially as our opponents flatly refused to look at anything we provided and seemed profoundly unaware of the details or background that they'd have if they had looked at the atheist case at all. Aside from which, if we explained it, they'd dismiss it and carry on making the same uninformed statements as before.

I have a theory, ..that these bods refer to apologetics sources (there are plenty of Bible -apologetics handbooks) and use those. Which is ok as atheist apologists use sources a lot (e.g talk origins) and I noticed that some really good, tough apologetic would be made and after i'd sorta nulled that, my opponent went to pieces. And we've seen here, the ploy of 'well you go and debate with my source and when you'd beaten him get back to me'. Which is why we had to say: "No, if you have a case to make, make it here. You do not get to send us off reading books and get away with avoiding either admitting losing that one or running away".

[tam]

Peace to you,

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

Faith versus works is an easy one (faith compels works). Understanding grace - something we are given even though we did not deserve it - can be harder for us to wrap our minds around.

Eternal life is a gift from God. A gift that can be given to both Christians and non-Christians. But it is not something anyone (faith or no faith) has earned so that they could go up to God and demand eternal life. We all do wrong (faith or no faith) and need forgiveness and mercy for those wrongs. The wages of sin is death - and we all sin. But eternal life is a gift from God, from His mercy, His love, His wisdom. Grace. Even faith itself is a gift. So that no one can brag. But we can most certainly be grateful, we can most certainly love because we are loved (and were loved first even).


As to faith verses works:

As James said, faith without works is dead. If faith does not compel one to works, can it really be faith? Granted, the thief on the cross did not have much of an opportunity for works, but he defended Christ (a work) and asked Christ to remember him (also a work, demonstrating his faith... because if he had no faith in Christ, why would he have asked Christ to remember him when He came into His Kingdom?)

(I inserted 'eternal life' in place of heaven, because the Kingdom is upon the earth. I figured you might asking more about eternal life, rather than the location of that life.)


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy