Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #31

Post by brunumb »

Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:47 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:44 pm
Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:43 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:31 pm 1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)
Thanks for your interest. I have no time to answer all your questions, but now you know where to find the answers.

Have a nice day.
It took more time to write that Claytons response than it would have taken to type the three words answering the questions you were asked. I think anyone following the discussion will understand exactly why you 'deferred' instead.
I am sure of that: everybody would know why I did ... I just said it: "I have no time to answer all your questions". It is my time.

Next.
Here you are again wasting your time replying to me when it would have been more relevant to the discussion to provide the three words to answer the questions you were asked. Very telling.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #32

Post by Eloi »

brunumb wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:20 pm
Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:47 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:44 pm
Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:43 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:31 pm 1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)
Thanks for your interest. I have no time to answer all your questions, but now you know where to find the answers.

Have a nice day.
It took more time to write that Claytons response than it would have taken to type the three words answering the questions you were asked. I think anyone following the discussion will understand exactly why you 'deferred' instead.
I am sure of that: everybody would know why I did ... I just said it: "I have no time to answer all your questions". It is my time.

Next.
Here you are again wasting your time replying to me when it would have been more relevant to the discussion to provide the three words to answer the questions you were asked. Very telling.
I am not wasting it ... I am using it, the way I want.
Thanks for your interest on how I use my time but mind your own business.
Have a great day.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #33

Post by POI »

Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:22 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:20 pm
Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:47 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:44 pm
Eloi wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:43 pm
POI wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:31 pm 1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)
Thanks for your interest. I have no time to answer all your questions, but now you know where to find the answers.

Have a nice day.
It took more time to write that Claytons response than it would have taken to type the three words answering the questions you were asked. I think anyone following the discussion will understand exactly why you 'deferred' instead.
I am sure of that: everybody would know why I did ... I just said it: "I have no time to answer all your questions". It is my time.

Next.
Here you are again wasting your time replying to me when it would have been more relevant to the discussion to provide the three words to answer the questions you were asked. Very telling.
I am not wasting it ... I am using it, the way I want.
Thanks for your interest on how I use my time but mind your own business.
Have a great day.
But your statement "I have no time to answer all your questions" demonstrates to be a false claim. As 'brunumb' and I have already indicated, I doubt you are not engaging for 'lack of time'. It's more likely you do not want your specific beliefs pressed too much.?.? Thus, I will present my three follow-up questions, taylored specifically for you, once more. And when you have the time, which will take all of 30 seconds, you can answer (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

And for the record, I've spoken to many Christians. Just because you state you are a "Jehovah's Witness" means very little, as I'm sure you and "JW" likely do not share one brain, where your beliefs are concerned. ;)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #34

Post by bjs1 »

POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:28 pm
bjs1 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:51 pm [Replying to POI in post #1]

Salvation (which includes getting to heaven, but is more than that) comes by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead (that is, not genuine faith), but it is the grace that comes through faith that brings salvation.
I'm afraid I am not following... Your answer seems somewhat cryptic. Are you saying salvation requires all three elements (grace + faith/belief + works)? I need a starting point before I can truly engage.

EDIT: Are you saying....

God requires faith, and true faith leads to good works? And maybe the more true faith you possess, the more it will be demonstrated through your works?
More or less, yes. Salvation comes by grace alone. It is a gift of God. Grace means something that is not deserved.

The means of grace is faith. Faith on its own could not save us. There is no logical reason that believing something should result in eternal life. It is the grace of God that He takes faith and credits it as righteousness.

If faith is genuine then it will cause a change in a person’s life. A person can just give lip services to faith. That is, he can say that he believes something when in reality he does not believe it at all and only says it for some kind of other benefit, such as the social benefit that sometimes comes from being associate with a church. To even call such lip service “faith” would be dishonest. Such lip service would not result in good works. Anything – be it faith in God or something else entirely – that a person believes will always have some kind of effect on how that person lives.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #35

Post by POI »

bjs1 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:36 pm
POI wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:28 pm
bjs1 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:51 pm [Replying to POI in post #1]

Salvation (which includes getting to heaven, but is more than that) comes by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead (that is, not genuine faith), but it is the grace that comes through faith that brings salvation.
I'm afraid I am not following... Your answer seems somewhat cryptic. Are you saying salvation requires all three elements (grace + faith/belief + works)? I need a starting point before I can truly engage.

EDIT: Are you saying....

God requires faith, and true faith leads to good works? And maybe the more true faith you possess, the more it will be demonstrated through your works?
More or less, yes. Salvation comes by grace alone. It is a gift of God. Grace means something that is not deserves.

The means of grace is faith. Faith on its own could not save us. There is no logical reason that believing something should result in eternal life. It is the grace of God that He takes faith and credits it as righteousness.
If no one deserves Heaven, does this mean every human actually receives salvation -- by grace alone?.?.?.?

The reason I pose the question above, is the given impression is that <grace> means "undeserving". Hence, if 'grace alone' is offered to 'the chosen', then no one ultimately deserves it anyhow. Hence, all could go to Heaven, right?
bjs1 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:36 pm If faith is genuine then it will cause a change in a person’s life.
Why would this act matter? Sounds like you already stated above that no one really deserves salvation? (i.e.) "Salvation comes by grace alone. It is a gift of God. Grace means something that is not deserves." Hence, the phrase (God's grace).

Or, are you ultimately saying God only offers His <grace>, or "undeserved selection", to the individuals who have had a true 'change of heart'?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #36

Post by TRANSPONDER »

If I could pop in my 2c based on my reading of Paul and some Christian comments in the passt, Yes. We are all sinners and deserving of Hell (so God says, holding us all sinners by descent from Adam). Thus we all deserve to die, go to Hell or whatever nasty thing God might do to us.

But while Jews could be saved by Righteousness (By believing in God and observing the Law meticulously) Jesus saved the Gentiles (and as Paul seems to have argued later on) Jews also, by his sacrifice (in Christianity by his magic blood, but in Paul's view by wiping out Adam's disobedience by his obedience up to and including, death). And all that the Gentiles had to do was become Righteous' through belief in ...not just God, but in Jesus (as risen messiah) too. Then the innate Righteousness (written on our hearts) would become our nature automatically through Faith in Jesus. And that is uncannily like the Christian belief not least in the idea that simply buying into JesusFaith will transform the believer and make them a better person.

Now, this is no guarantee (so I was told) and God is under no obligation to save anyone, no matter how much they may seem to be perfect and saintly. But we know the parameters, don't we, that give us a decent chance of making the cut {1}. That's Grace that God awards or not and it is attained by Faith and not by works.

But we also know, and so did Paul, that Jesusfaith does not always lead to a row of plaster Saints. And we can see, just as Paul did (and said) that bad deeds can risk loss of Grace. In other words, Works will not save you, but (bad) works can damn' you. Which of course we knew, or should. know.

James, by the way. so far as I understand it, insists that Faith alone will not save but you need Good works, too. I think he and Paul were disagreeing here. "Listen you clod, Faith without some good works will get you nowhere". But I think Paul thought that Faith without works Would save. But evil deeds would unsave. Unless some exhibition repentance would rehabilitate the sinner.

(1) As Theramin trees "Losing Faith" remarks, that cut may be as little two people being equally as good but one was a few seconds more annoyed at someone cutting him out as the other...but one hobnobbed with God eternally in Paradise and the other was tortured forever. "Well," says the Believer "It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to God". But already, unless God takes your mind away (or you are quite psychotic) how can you live in heaven knowing what it happening to those who didn't make the cut? That's why nobody with the ability to think could possibly credit hellthreat.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #37

Post by POI »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:47 am If I could pop in my 2c based on my reading of Paul and some Christian comments in the passt, Yes. We are all sinners and deserving of Hell (so God says, holding us all sinners by descent from Adam). Thus we all deserve to die, go to Hell or whatever nasty thing God might do to us.

But while Jews could be saved by Righteousness (By believing in God and observing the Law meticulously) Jesus saved the Gentiles (and as Paul seems to have argued later on) Jews also, by his sacrifice (in Christianity by his magic blood, but in Paul's view by wiping out Adam's disobedience by his obedience up to and including, death). And all that the Gentiles had to do was become Righteous' through belief in ...not just God, but in Jesus (as risen messiah) too. Then the innate Righteousness (written on our hearts) would become our nature automatically through Faith in Jesus. And that is uncannily like the Christian belief not least in the idea that simply buying into JesusFaith will transform the believer and make them a better person.

Now, this is no guarantee (so I was told) and God is under no obligation to save anyone, no matter how much they may seem to be perfect and saintly. But we know the parameters, don't we, that give us a decent chance of making the cut {1}. That's Grace that God awards or not and it is attained by Faith and not by works.

But we also know, and so did Paul, that Jesusfaith does not always lead to a row of plaster Saints. And we can see, just as Paul did (and said) that bad deeds can risk loss of Grace. In other words, Works will not save you, but (bad) works can damn' you. Which of course we knew, or should. know.

James, by the way. so far as I understand it, insists that Faith alone will not save but you need Good works, too. I think he and Paul were disagreeing here. "Listen you clod, Faith without some good works will get you nowhere". But I think Paul thought that Faith without works Would save. But evil deeds would unsave. Unless some exhibition repentance would rehabilitate the sinner.

(1) As Theramin trees "Losing Faith" remarks, that cut may be as little two people being equally as good but one was a few seconds more annoyed at someone cutting him out as the other...but one hobnobbed with God eternally in Paradise and the other was tortured forever. "Well," says the Believer "It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to God". But already, unless God takes your mind away (or you are quite psychotic) how can you live in heaven knowing what it happening to those who didn't make the cut? That's why nobody with the ability to think could possibly credit hellthreat.
I appreciate your response, and you make some valid points. But you see, you are I are mere casual/interested observers. The objective of this thread is to get the believer to demonstrate that their methodology for salvation, is a sound one. Thus far, I have not heard one. I'm patiently waiting however. (i.e.) ----

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

Any path one so chooses presents with logical inconsistencies.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #38

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thank you...hang on....Thanks. Yes. suppose (apart from peddling my own Theory ;) ) I'm saying why appeals to Paul (or James) as supporting some Christian doctrine (e.g Works do not count either way, only Faith) might not be accepted just on say so, because apart from what Paul said in Romans and what James apparently had to say to that, Paul certainly said (in Corinthians) that 'works' did count, and that is reflected in the (later - as another Theory :P of mine claims) gospels say in 'how to enter eternal life'.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #39

Post by POI »

Bumping this thread...

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

???
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #40

Post by POI »

Bumping this thread (again)...

Salvation comes from:

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by works alone
- Grace by faith/belief and works
- Other

???
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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