Is faith for the lazy?

[nobspeople]

To have faith in something, you have to believe and hope that, against what seems normal, your desired end result comes to fruition.
Want to be cured of your terminal disease? Have faith.
Want to be able to pay your bill, even though your account shows you can't? Have faith.
Want to think your loved ones will make it to heaven? Have faith.
But is 'having faith' showing you're weak?
Want to be cured of your terminal disease? Why not get off your butt and seek medical treatment?
Want to be able to pay your bills? How's 'bout you get another or different job?
Want your loved ones to get to heaven? Do something about it.

There are those that both, have faith and work to better their situation. But are they doing enough?

For discussion:
Does the act of 'having faith' allow for laziness within believers, relying only on their belief in god and not their own ability to better themselves?*

*This is not to say, explicitly, that all believers are lazy (though there is an argument for that as well), but by having faith either allows for more laziness or is held by people who are more likely to be lazy.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Evidence is that life (however it started) evolved.

I despise the theory of evolution (macro).

Aside postulating a god behind that evolution, rejection of that evidence because of Faith in Genesis is invalid, illogical and against the evidence. 'Faith' in evolution in fact follows the evidence and a god (name your own) behind it is...just a matter of Faith.

Opinion noted. Opinion rejected.

[brunumb]

Evidence is that life (however it started) evolved.

I despise the theory of evolution (macro).

Quite understandable. The truth often hurts for those unwilling to accept it.

Macro evolution is just the cumulative effect of micro evolution over time.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Quite understandable. The truth often hurts for those unwilling to accept it.

Jesus is the truth and I am willing to accept him.

Macro evolution is just the cumulative effect of micro evolution over time.

Eternal life is the cumulative effect after accepting Christ.

We all have our faith, dont we?

[Willum]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #13]

Do you not read they Bible at all?
Not all that accept your reprobate god’s son are saved.
You need to give everything to the poor in some cases, and there are others.

Accepting Jesus only gets you to Heaven if you guessed the right church/other beliefs to hold.

[Wootah]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

It depends on the understanding of faith. The strawman version does seem lazy. Phenomena A Goddidit. Phenomena B Goddidit.

But if we take our more neutral view of even that phenomena it mostly stems from the fact that death is permanent and there are very few second chances. So what I mean is that if you were living a long time ago and something bad happens and someone dies you don't have the luxury of forming and testing a hypothesis but you have to decide right there and then what to do next. Mostly superstition is simply a decision made in time in relation to an event that seemed to avoid a negative consequence.

The next thing I want to say is that the general understanding of the Christian faith is strawmanned and degraded necessarily by atheists. All faith is to me is trust and best understand as the relationship we have with other people. With other people, you cannot do a 100% repeatable hard science experiment to know whether they can be trusted. Rather, we build up over time, through (repeatable soft science experiments?), an experience of each other and based upon that we trust or have faith in what we expect another person to do.

Faith is not for the lazy or the active. It's just a word that gets demonised a lot. Why is that?

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #13]

Do you not read they Bible at all?
Not all that accept your reprobate god’s son are saved.
You need to give everything to the poor in some cases, and there are others.

Accepting Jesus only gets you to Heaven if you guessed the right church/other beliefs to hold.

Sure, whatever you say.

No need for me to get too deep into Christian theology, with someone who doesn't believe in Christian theology.

[Willum]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #13]

Do you not read they Bible at all?
Not all that accept your reprobate god’s son are saved.
You need to give everything to the poor in some cases, and there are others.

Accepting Jesus only gets you to Heaven if you guessed the right church/other beliefs to hold.

Sure, whatever you say.

No need for me to get too deep into Christian theology, with someone who doesn't believe in Christian theology.

It is also useless to discuss it with someone who believes their opinion about God is the right one.
You do believe your own personal beliefs, are, by an amazing coincidence, exactly the right ones to hold about God, the ones he believes about himself, yes?

[TRANSPONDER]

Evidence is that life (however it started) evolved.

I despise the theory of evolution (macro).

Aside postulating a god behind that evolution, rejection of that evidence because of Faith in Genesis is invalid, illogical and against the evidence. 'Faith' in evolution in fact follows the evidence and a god (name your own) behind it is...just a matter of Faith.

Opinion noted. Opinion rejected.

Ok. It will be noted that your kneejerk rejection is based on nothing but personal dislike. However, to get back to topic, that is very easy for the Faithful and we know that 'evidence' is dismissed on the grounds that it is misinterpreted by science, which is always getting things wrong. That of course will suit the Bible apologists very well and also your argument that it is 'Faith' both ways. But that depends on whether one trusts the scientific take on the evidence or not.

For myself, if I didn't I wouldn't trust anything science did, but we all do. The fact is that science deniers trust science unquestioningly unless it contradicts their faith and then they dismiss it. It is self -serving, hypocritical and lazy to do so.

Though again, a huge amount of work goes into the use of science to try to debunk science. Take Behe's I/C, Woodmorappe's Ark apologetics or Brown's revised geology. The amount or work that went into trying to justify a science revised so as to fit Genesis was staggering.

Incidentally Venom, you do realise that Creationism accepts the fact of evolution, don't you? They just deny that it can lead to speciation. For general information of course. I don't expect you to post any reasonable response.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #13]

Do you not read they Bible at all?
Not all that accept your reprobate god’s son are saved.
You need to give everything to the poor in some cases, and there are others.

Accepting Jesus only gets you to Heaven if you guessed the right church/other beliefs to hold.

Sure, whatever you say.

No need for me to get too deep into Christian theology, with someone who doesn't believe in Christian theology.

On the contrary. It is basic to Bible - criticism to get into 'theology' as you call it. I rarely dabble in theology as I agree - why would I discuss theology when I don't believe it? But that is (translated) suggesting that critics leave Christianity alone if they don't believe it. Because it gets forced on us every day, in school, work and politics, unless we keep pushing so that doesn't happen. We God -denying pondslime are happy to let people believe what they want. But they should not force those beliefs on others, which is what religion, and particularly religion with a political angle (which is what we inevitably get) habitually does, and all religious (or cultic) claims should be countered by the counter argument, available to the public, otherwise we get the Strobel -spoof, where only the Theist arguments are presented as though they were impartial research.

That, chum, is why we get involved in the 'theology'.

[Tcg]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Some faithful stay quite busy it seems studying their holy books and even more so resources that help explain the many difficulties they present. Beyond that, some spend a great deal of effort arguing with other faithful over the "proper interpretation" of said holy books. Of course, I often get the impression that this activity helps avoid the nagging doubts that many experience concerning their faith. But, stay busy enough and one can ignore most anything.


Tcg