Your miracle

[nobspeople]

Some say miracles are real, while others say they're not. The naysayers often point out to limbs not growing back, other dead people not raising up and 'living their best life', no one since Mosses has interacted with a talking and burning bush that's not consumed, etc.
Yet believers do point out that Billy Bobchristian was 'healed' from his sin. Or Bobby Billchristian survived his 11th hour surgery that saved his life. And the like.

For discussion:
So, here's your chance, believers, once and for all. What miracle have you experienced that you KNOW was a miracle and that it was from god (if you're willing to have it, potentially, challenged - and why shouldn't you? You have faith it's real that's all that matter to you, right? Why not use this time to witness the power of your god?!?)?

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Through the development of more complex chemical reactions from pimplier self replicating molecules, probably self replicating RNA .

If that is possible, where we can see it in nature, life from non living material?

Why yes it is. Take a look at plants. Plants take non liviing material and turn it into plant, which is living material

You beat me to it. Of course I can already hear it: "But seeds have the potential of life." To which I'd argue that biochemicals have the potential of life, in the right circumstances.

What they really mean here is "We demand that abiogenesis happen before our werry eyes before we believe it." It's not totally unreasonable as abiogenesis is still theoretical, even though there is coherent hypothetical mechanism for it and circumstantial evidence that it happened in water, developed through RNA/DNA and thus to the first cells, and it did not happen with life created as per Genesis. There is no mechanism for Goddunnit nor any sound evidence for creation. And of course, even if there was, that wouldn't tell us which god.

Again, I'll repeat a favorite story of a former debate where the Creationist heard that scientists had 'made life in the laboratory'. (of course that wasn't quite what they'd done). This of course was what Creationists had demanded before they believed it and now they had it and so they'd accept Abiogenesis, yes? No. I quote his excuse: "Just because they made life in the Lab, doesn't mean that was the way it happened."

Shift the goalposts of denial. Institute the bait and switch of the one -shot atheist -stumper. Find a missing link and they'll insist it just makes for two missing links. Answer every question and meet every demand and they'll just resort to 'Faith' with 'nobody knows for sure'.

[1213]

...
Through the development of more complex chemical reactions from pimplier self replicating molecules, probably self replicating RNA .

If that is possible, where we can see it in nature, life from non living material?

Why yes it is. Take a look at plants. Plants take non liviing material and turn it into plant, which is living material

How about plants from seeds? Are seeds 'alive?'

Normally seeds come from living plants. So that is not what I asked. If we could get seeds or plants from dead material, like sand that has no roots or seeds, that would be interesting.

[Tcg]

Normally seeds come from living plants. So that is not what I asked. If we could get seeds or plants from dead material, like sand that has no roots or seeds, that would be interesting.

The seeds themselves are dead. Even the Jesus character from the gospel John knew this:

John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

...
Through the development of more complex chemical reactions from pimplier self replicating molecules, probably self replicating RNA .

If that is possible, where we can see it in nature, life from non living material?

Why yes it is. Take a look at plants. Plants take non liviing material and turn it into plant, which is living material

How about plants from seeds? Are seeds 'alive?'

Normally seeds come from living plants. So that is not what I asked. If we could get seeds or plants from dead material, like sand that has no roots or seeds, that would be interesting.

Fair point. But one might also argue that if scientists could produce life from non life (biochemicals) you could also argue that the process had to be done by living beings. So maybe the point is whether the process of life coming from non -life can happen rather than whether it needs an intelligent originator to make it happen. Though the answer must be fertilisation, mustn't it? Without the spark of life, the seed will stay dead matter. Yep, origins of life is still one of the Big Three apologetics.

[TRANSPONDER]

Normally seeds come from living plants. So that is not what I asked. If we could get seeds or plants from dead material, like sand that has no roots or seeds, that would be interesting.

The seeds themselves are dead. Even the Jesus character from the gospel John knew this:

John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Tcg

Good point. But the analogy here is not that the inanimate matter of the seed needs the right inanimate matter (nutrients; water) to become alive but hang on... is the seed alive or not? It needs (like any other life) sustenance, but is it alive? Does cornseed need to be fertilzed before it can become a corn -plant? I don't think it does. Bananas, I seem to recall are specifically sterile; they do not reproduce; they just grow from bio -matter. It grows and lives, but like a crystal? Growing but non -reproducing?

Input?

[1213]

The seeds themselves are dead. Even the Jesus character from the gospel John knew this:

Maybe so, but they come from living plants. Can you get seeds out of rocks and stones, without plants that grow them?

[Tcg]

The seeds themselves are dead. Even the Jesus character from the gospel John knew this:

Maybe so, but they come from living plants. Can you get seeds out of rocks and stones, without plants that grow them?

Irrelevant. Seeds are dead. Even your Jesus (according to the mythology) knew this.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

The seeds themselves are dead. Even the Jesus character from the gospel John knew this:

Maybe so, but they come from living plants. Can you get seeds out of rocks and stones, without plants that grow them?

It's not really the argument is it; even aside absorbing chemicals through the roots and turning it into living matter. It's biochemicals turning into life that wasn't there. Is a seed living? I don't think it is.

[brunumb]

Though the answer must be fertilisation, mustn't it? Without the spark of life, the seed will stay dead matter

A seed is actually the outcome of the process of fertilisation. The seed won't begin to grow until supplied with non-living matter such as water and air, but it is still a living thing, just dormant.

[brunumb]

The seeds themselves are dead. Even the Jesus character from the gospel John knew this:

Maybe so, but they come from living plants. Can you get seeds out of rocks and stones, without plants that grow them?

Irrelevant. Seeds are dead. Even your Jesus (according to the mythology) knew this.


Tcg

I'm wondering if the confusion arises from the fact that first the plant dies, the seed bearing heads dry out, and when those dead heads fall to the ground the seed is released and are able to germinate. Just a thought.