Whence cometh righteousness?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Romans 3:20)

And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us. (Deuteronomy 6:24-25)

Any Christian commentary on this?

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20499
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 335 times
Contact:

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #21

Post by otseng »

[Replying to theophile in post #19]

Moderator Comment

Please avoid any profanity of any sort.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7956
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 931 times
Been thanked: 3484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #22

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:12 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #11
(b) the view of the gospel writers. Yes, absolutely. If Jesus contradicted the Mosaic law it was because the Mosaic law needed updating.
But Jesus himself endorsed the law as it was in the very midst of negating parts of it, which was itself a violation of the law (Deut. 4:2), so even the gospel writers' endorsement of Jesus doesn't work.

In John 5:47 Jesus asks his critics how they can believe him if they don't believe what Moses wrote, but given his own negations of the law of Moses, how could they believe him if they did believe what Moses wrote?
Yes. This has always been a debating puzzle, that Jesus appears to uphold the Law (In Matthew's remark about not jot or tittle passing away) but on the other hand seems to be saying it doesn't matter, breaking Sabbath, ignoring ritual cleanliness and declaring all foods clean, as specifically glossed in Mark 7.19. (one of his own edits) as well as implying that joining his following is more important than father and mother. In fact he says so. Mark 10.29 also in the other synoptics, I am sure.

My own take is that Matthew's line is that the law says unchanged, sure, but Jesus goes further advocating observing the spirit of the law rather than the letter. In effect leaving it behind and making it obsolete. This is the argument that Paul works out and his Christian followers who write the gospels took that ball and ran with it. This doesn't alter the law but 'Fulfils' it, and Luke 16.17 clarifies this where he uses the same passage though of course, he uses it differently as well as putting it in a different time and context. The Law and prophets were until John. Then there was the Kingdom of God and the Law and prophets were obsolete. This is the message of the Gospels and it is the message of Paul, not of Jesus who, if he existed, observed the Law, as his later followers did, which is why they fell out with Paul.

Let's look up that John quote. Ah yes. :D No, no. The writer is declaring that Moses prophesied Jesus. So if they don't believe in Jesus, they must be denying Moses. :roll: Sorry, This is just Christian propaganda and I would contest that any OT writing actually prophesies Jesus. Apart from Zechariah 9.9 which Jesus May have deliberately made come true, if any of the story is factual.

bjs1
Sage
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:18 pm
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 225 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #23

Post by bjs1 »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:12 am In an earlier thread I shared an analogy about a man who takes his young son outside and orders him to flap his arms and fly to the moon, and threatens to beat him if he doesn't. As hard as the boy tries, he can't fly to the moon and is subjected to the promised beating. Then his father says, "Son, I told you to fly to the moon......only to show you that you couldn't."

Unless you are suggesting that it there is a command in the law which is physically impossible to keep (if so, I would ask which one), then this analogy seems inaccurate. Allow me to present analogy that at least fits with what Christians say they believe: A man finds himself in a deep pit. A friend throws a rope down to save him, but the man says, “No, I can climb out on my own.” After dozens of attempts to climb the steep pit walls, in which the man was repeated bruised and cut, the friend called out, “The rope is still there. You would not take my help, so I had to let you try it on your own so that you could see that you can’t do it. I still want to help you.”

Athetotheist wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:12 am Now go back and read Deuteronomy 28 from verse 15 on. If the law is there only to show the people what they can't do, why does it mete out such harsh punishments for not being able to do it? It makes no moral sense.
Bad behavior has bad results. You can call this God, or Karma, or just the way life is. It certainly proves true.

Athetotheist wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:12 am Ask yourself also why Dt. 30:11-14----when correctly translated----says that the law is not too difficult.
It does not say one way or the other.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #24

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to bjs1 in post #23
It does not say one way or the other.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

That says one way, and not the other.

The only way for the rope analogy to work would be if the man were standing at the bottom of a hill and his friend threw the rope down from the top saying, "Grab on and I'll pull you up!" and the man answering, "Don't bother, I'll just hike up the trail."

bjs1
Sage
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:18 pm
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 225 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #25

Post by bjs1 »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:11 am The only way for the rope analogy to work would be if the man were standing at the bottom of a hill and his friend threw the rope down from the top saying, "Grab on and I'll pull you up!" and the man answering, "Don't bother, I'll just hike up the trail."

Which analogy works better depends on what happens after the rope is thrown. Does the person proceed to hike up the trail, or does he continue fall back into the pit again and again? If the person walks up the trail (obeys the law fully), then I would agree that you are correct. If the person fails to do so (finds himself unable to do what is good and that the law only points out just how far he has fallen) then I think that my analogy would be proven true.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

User avatar
Aetixintro
Site Supporter
Posts: 918
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:18 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Has thanked: 431 times
Been thanked: 27 times
Contact:

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #26

Post by Aetixintro »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #1]

I fail to understand how a professional child torturer who utters the words "I believe in Jesus Christ" is somehow ever going to Heaven, the home of God. No, to most people, also Judaists and Muslims, the right place is Hell.

Similarly, keeping The 10 Commandments and being respectful of laws and regulations should actually get you to Heaven. There's something insane by some interpretations of Jesus Christ. Surely, Jesus is a great prophet, but I think we all go to Hell regardless if we keep on declaring moral people, children in particular, for male and female Jesus Christs in order to persecute and torture them.

I mean, what is left of religious faith if you do not try to live according to The 10 Commandments and democratic laws and regulations? You know what, that declining faith can be determined by asking the computers nowadays.

:thanks: ;)
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7956
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 931 times
Been thanked: 3484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #27

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Aetixintro wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:07 am [Replying to Athetotheist in post #1]

I fail to understand how a professional child torturer who utters the words "I believe in Jesus Christ" is somehow ever going to Heaven, the home of God. No, to most people, also Judaists and Muslims, the right place is Hell.

Similarly, keeping The 10 Commandments and being respectful of laws and regulations should actually get you to Heaven. There's something insane by some interpretations of Jesus Christ. Surely, Jesus is a great prophet, but I think we all go to Hell regardless if we keep on declaring moral people, children in particular, for male and female Jesus Christs in order to persecute and torture them.

I mean, what is left of religious faith if you do not try to live according to The 10 Commandments and democratic laws and regulations? You know what, that declining faith can be determined by asking the computers nowadays.

:thanks: ;)
The whole 'heaven, hell and salvation' thing makes no sense which is why I have (in the past at any rate) seen Christians opt for UR rather than Eternal Torment. Effectively, discarding hell. Where is the justice if a Christian does wrong but repents and is forgiven? Quite apart from those who have claimed that there are no guarantees about who is going to be saved, especially as others claim that God's morality is different from ours. That's itself apart from having the wrong denomination, Bible or interpretation, never mind the wrong god.

On top of that, the cut- off point of saved or damned is nonsensical, where two identical persons in terms of Deeds and beliefs, but one had a doubt about the Shekel eating fish and the other didn't and one went to heaven for ever and the other was damned to eternal torment. It simply makes no sense to have a heaven and hell and must be an invention of humans trying to explain why and how a god lets wrongdoers get away with it, quite apart from trying to use hellthreat to control people (for good or bad reasons). And this is not exclusive to Abrahamic religions. Even atheistic Buddhism concocted a heaven and hell to put pressure on people to behave.

Righteousness cometh from human notions of ethics, and we can see the history and evolution of it. It is seen in all cultures and (like the arts, language and politics) has the same basics while reflecting regional differences, which shows that 'written on our hearts' is a metaphor for 'Evolved instinct'.

Even if the religious reject that, it is reason enough for non - believers to say: "There's the explanation for where morals comes from and what the Objective basis is'. There is no need to postulate a divine origin as that particular gap for a god (name your own) has closed. Morality is no longer an effective apologetic.

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #28

Post by Athetotheist »

bjs1 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:34 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:11 am The only way for the rope analogy to work would be if the man were standing at the bottom of a hill and his friend threw the rope down from the top saying, "Grab on and I'll pull you up!" and the man answering, "Don't bother, I'll just hike up the trail."

Which analogy works better depends on what happens after the rope is thrown. Does the person proceed to hike up the trail, or does he continue fall back into the pit again and again? If the person walks up the trail (obeys the law fully), then I would agree that you are correct. If the person fails to do so (finds himself unable to do what is good and that the law only points out just how far he has fallen) then I think that my analogy would be proven true.
The text itself says that the person can walk up the trail.

Also, if----as the text says----It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”, then it wasn't necessary for
Jesus or anyone else to come down from heaven and "restore" the law.

Post Reply