Whence cometh righteousness?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Romans 3:20)

And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us. (Deuteronomy 6:24-25)

Any Christian commentary on this?

bjs1
Sage
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:18 pm
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 225 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #2

Post by bjs1 »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:31 pm Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Romans 3:20)

And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us. (Deuteronomy 6:24-25)

Any Christian commentary on this?

The quote from Deuteronomy seems conceptual, while the line from Romans is practical.

In theory a person could observe “all these commandments,” and be declared righteous. I have certainly never met such a person.

The practical outworking of the law was that is the showed us just how poor of a job we have done at being good. While we might theoretically be righteous by doing good and always keeping “all these commandments” no human has ever come close to that (save one).

If righteousness is to be achieved in people, it will have to be by some means other than “the works of the law.”
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #3

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to bjs1 in post #2
The quote from Deuteronomy seems conceptual, while the line from Romans is practical.
These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
(Deut. 6:6-9)

Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it or take away from it.
(Dt. 12:32)

How does that "seem conceptual"?
While we might theoretically be righteous by doing good and always keeping “all these commandments” no human has ever come close to that (save one).
And who was that one supposed to be?

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #4

Post by Tcg »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:12 pm [Replying to bjs1 in post #2
The quote from Deuteronomy seems conceptual, while the line from Romans is practical.
These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
(Deut. 6:6-9)

Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it or take away from it.
(Dt. 12:32)

How does that "seem conceptual"?
While we might theoretically be righteous by doing good and always keeping “all these commandments” no human has ever come close to that (save one).
And who was that one supposed to be?
It'd also be helpful to know how it was determined that only one ever achieved righteousness. Modern humans have been around for roughly 200,000 to 300,000 years. There are about 7.9 billion of us today. How would it be possible to know what has or has not been achieved by humans in the past or even in the present? That's a whole bunch of humans to keep tabs on.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

bjs1
Sage
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:18 pm
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 225 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #5

Post by bjs1 »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:12 pm [Replying to bjs1 in post #2
The quote from Deuteronomy seems conceptual, while the line from Romans is practical.
These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
(Deut. 6:6-9)

Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it or take away from it.
(Dt. 12:32)

How does that "seem conceptual"?
Read the rest of my post. I started with a general statement, and then explained the "how" of it.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #6

Post by Athetotheist »

bjs1 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:17 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:12 pm [Replying to bjs1 in post #2
The quote from Deuteronomy seems conceptual, while the line from Romans is practical.
These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
(Deut. 6:6-9)

Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it or take away from it.
(Dt. 12:32)

How does that "seem conceptual"?
Read the rest of my post. I started with a general statement, and then explained the "how" of it.
I did read the rest of your post. It just puts your initial assertion into more words.

In an earlier thread I shared an analogy about a man who takes his young son outside and orders him to flap his arms and fly to the moon, and threatens to beat him if he doesn't. As hard as the boy tries, he can't fly to the moon and is subjected to the promised beating. Then his father says, "Son, I told you to fly to the moon......only to show you that you couldn't."

Now go back and read Deuteronomy 28 from verse 15 on. If the law is there only to show the people what they can't do, why does it mete out such harsh punishments for not being able to do it? It makes no moral sense.

Ask yourself also why Dt. 30:11-14----when correctly translated----says that the law is not too difficult.

User avatar
theophile
Guru
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 pm
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 126 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #7

Post by theophile »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:31 pm Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Romans 3:20)

And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us. (Deuteronomy 6:24-25)

Any Christian commentary on this?
Nice juxtaposition. I don't think it's any secret that Jesus turns the law on its head in the gospels. He breaks the law even as he says he'll fulfill it (that kind of thing). So there's obviously something subtle going on here.

I think it's helpful to consider Israel (or any person / people in the bible) as being on a maturity curve, so that we have the right context for what's being said. Like, we start out as children, go through rebellious teenage years where we think we know best, and eventually mature into adulthood and have something approaching wisdom.

So I would say that Moses is speaking to Israel in its rebellious teenage years here, when Israel needed a strong set of rules in place to constrain their worst instincts and guide them to righteousness. Paul is speaking to Israel (and all the Gentiles) on the cusp of adulthood, when they can at last put off such things and do what is right of their own accord.

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #8

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to theophile in post #7
I don't think it's any secret that Jesus turns the law on its head in the gospels. He breaks the law even as he says he'll fulfill it (that kind of thing). So there's obviously something subtle going on here.
If you read things in context, what's obvious is that there's something inconsistent going on here. As you say, he breaks the law even as he says he'll fulfill it, even as he's telling the crowd in Matthew 5:17-19 that everything in the law was still to be kept. What's "subtle" is the way he refers to parts of the law as being merely what they had "heard" had been "said" (Matthew 5:31-32, 33-37), obscuring the fact that he's actually telling them to disregard what Moses commanded them (Numbers 30:1-2, Deut. 24:1-4) and at the same time telling them to keep those same laws.

Now, if you were a 1st-century Jew who knew the law and heard Jesus tell you that you should still keep every jot and tittle of it, you would have no choice but to keep every jot and tittle of Deuteronomy 27:26....

Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out. Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”.....

.....recognize that this is exactly what's going on with Jesus when he "turns the law on its head", and realize that he is not the Jewish Messiah.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #9

Post by TRANSPONDER »

We seem to have three elements or questions here, though maybe only two, or even just one.

(1) The OT tell the Jews that Righteousness is in keeping the Law (commandments and also the rites and customs of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.). I'm not sure what good that was supposed to do them pre -Daniel other than avoiding Smiting if they didn't, but after Daniel and the Hasmonean revolt, we had the element of Pharisees, zealots for the Law, messianic deliverance and the Last Days, after which there would be everything from eternal life on earth to the Elect being raised as stars in the sky. As we know, the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection, but the Pharisees did, though it was raising of bodies to live on earth, not being raised up to heaven.

(2) Paul in Romans argues that Abraham was Righteous before the Law (under Moses) was given through Faith in God. Even though man was sinful through Adam. Meticulous observance of the Law could save (I suppose) though Paul is not clear about this. But his point is that the Law was imposed because of the hard -heartedness of the Jews. Paul's view is that the Law does not save but rather gives the Jews more chances to sin by imposing more Laws. This was understood by Luke and that explains that passage in Acts (at the council of Jerusalem) where he has Peter speak of a burden that the 'fathers' of the Jews were unable to bear. Paul argued that Gentiles through Faith could become God's people through innate Righteousness (like Abraham) and can be God's people and share in resurrection without the need for the law. Indeed, he argues, anyone who follows the Jewish rites becomes subject to the 'burden' of the law. He further argues that Jesus' obedience (to death) wiped out the disobedience of Adam. Thus Christians with Faith in Jesus would become sinless. This didn't happen and his converts slipped into immorality and pride (we are so surprised :clap: ) Because Paul was talking ingenious bosh.

(3) Three is the teachings of Jesus on Righteousness. I won'r get into which came first, Paul or gospels, but one thing seems clear - that is that observing the law (Jewish law) will not gain salvation, only being Righteous. But what is clear that (whether one observes the law like the rich young ruler or tosses the commandments in the trash like Jesus suggests) doing Good supersedes the law and that is Righteous, but it is Faith in Jesus that will save, not just being a good person. Effectively, Righteousness will not save, but only Faith. That would seem obvious otherwise Righteous Hindus or Muslims would be in heaven while the Unrighteous Christians ("God can make use of even bad persons") are stoking the furnaces. As Paul came to trealise and as James argued, Good Works cannot save, but bad Works sure can unsave. And just how far Forgiveness will get the sinner is another question. (1)

And a (4) this is only to dabble in Theology or rather what the Bible actually says, as distinct what Believers want it to say. If we get onto whence Righteousness actually comes from, this is nothing to do with God, Jesus or the Bible, but is everything to do with instinct, animal empathy, survival and Evolution, both biological and social.

(1) or maybe the same one. Aside insincere displays or repentance, just how far will repentance get you? We know that salvation by Righteousness or even Faith is no guarantee, but (unless God is a total psychotic) being a good person and having Faith should surely do it. Sure, Jesus makes it clear that repentance should include not doing it again. Though Jesus talks of forgiving seven times seven, but some sincerity is surely wanted and not just reciting a rote apology and buying an escape with a dollar in the tin (unless afterlife is for the rich hypocrite) means no more than prayer wheels or wiping out political murder with a gold plate on the pagoda.

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Whence cometh righteousness?

Post #10

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #9
We seem to have three elements or questions here, though maybe only two, or even just one.
I would say we have only one question here: Was Jesus the Jewish Messiah? From his inconsistent teaching on the law of Moses, the logical answer is "No".

Post Reply