The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

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Eloi
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The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Many times when the teachings of Jesus and his person are discussed, reference is made to a particular interpretation of what his words may be indicating. For example, I have read a discussion about a Jesus who denies or contradicts the Law of Moses. But that is an incorrect way of understanding Jesus, just like a political Jesus is or one who does not admit rich people among his followers, as if honest possessions were sin.

Can those who debate the teachings of Jesus at least begin to ascertain that the Jesus they suppose is the one that Scripture shows us and not an imaginary Jesus?

This topic is to analyze the need to be serious in the use of terms and premises, so that the debates adjust to the truth, and the conclusions are more accurate.

What is the Jesus you have in mind? Does it correspond to the Jesus of the Bible? Can you really know what Jesus was like?

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #21

Post by Eloi »

There is an interesting information about the Sabbath Day in our Biblical Encyclopedia.

Rabbinic Sabbath Restrictions.
The Sabbath was originally intended to be a joyous, spiritually upbuilding time. But in their zeal to distinguish themselves from the Gentiles as much as possible, the Jewish religious leaders, especially after the return from Babylonian exile, gradually made it a burdensome thing by greatly increasing the Sabbath restrictions to 39, with innumerable lesser restrictions. These, when compiled, filled two large volumes. For example, catching a flea was forbidden as hunting. A sufferer could not be given relief unless death threatened. A bone could not be set, nor a sprain bandaged. The true purpose of the Sabbath was made void by these Jewish religious leaders, for they made the people slaves to tradition, instead of having the Sabbath serve men to the honor of God. (Mt 15:3, 6; 23:2-4; Mr 2:27) When Jesus’ disciples picked grain and rubbed it in their hands to eat, they evidently were accused on two counts, namely, harvesting and threshing on the Sabbath. (Lu 6:1, 2) The rabbis had a saying: “The sins of everyone who strictly observes every law of the Sabbath, though he be an idol worshiper, are forgiven.”

From https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003778

Would Jesus really be violating the Mosaic Sabbath Law if he broke any of these "sabbatical" demands of the rabbis that were just a particular way of interpreting that specific law? ... or rather Jesus would only be "violating" a human addition to the law?

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #22

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Eloi in post #21
Would Jesus really be violating the Mosaic Sabbath Law if he broke any of these "sabbatical" demands of the rabbis that were just a particular way of interpreting that specific law? ... or rather Jesus would only be "violating" a human addition to the law?
The excuse is often made that Jesus was merely rejecting human additions to the law, but when he prohibits something which the law allows, like oath-taking and divorce, when the law specifically forbids additions, (Deut. 4:2, 12:32), that's violating the law, not just someone's take on the law. And when he tells others that they should keep the law at the same time he's telling them to disregard it----as in Matthew 5----it's clear that whoever he may be, someone who handles the law of Moses in such a way cannot logically be the Jewish Messiah.

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #23

Post by Eloi »

Did Jesus "prohibits something which the law allows"? Or, did Jesus make any "addition" to the Law?

Was there any post-Jesus "Mosaic Law" that included any of those supposed changes, additions, contradictions, denials, exemptions, etc. that Jesus supposedly made?

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #24

Post by POI »

Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:57 pm Many times when the teachings of Jesus and his person are discussed, reference is made to a particular interpretation of what his words may be indicating.
Let's start with "Luke":


Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:57 pm Can those who debate the teachings of Jesus at least begin to ascertain that the Jesus they suppose is the one that Scripture shows us and not an imaginary Jesus?
Okay?
Eloi wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:57 pm What is the Jesus you have in mind? Does it correspond to the Jesus of the Bible? Can you really know what Jesus was like?
I think it depends on the day you are reading it, and which 'Book" you are reading?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #25

Post by Difflugia »

POI wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:22 pmLet's start with "Luke"
"I think you're overestimating how critically people are going to read these documents."
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #26

Post by POI »

Difflugia wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:41 pm
POI wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:22 pmLet's start with "Luke"
"I think you're overestimating how critically people are going to read these documents."
Well, I like to give the believers every benefit of the doubt :)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #27

Post by Athetotheist »

:| [Replying to Eloi in post #23
Did Jesus "prohibits something which the law allows"? Or, did Jesus make any "addition" to the Law?
Both. He added prohibitions to the law.
Was there any post-Jesus "Mosaic Law" that included any of those supposed changes, additions, contradictions, denials, exemptions, etc. that Jesus supposedly made?
There was in the minds of Christians: the Christian gospels.

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #28

Post by JoeyKnothead »

A day ya ain't allowed to do no work?

No wonder Jesus quit construction and went to preaching.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #29

Post by brunumb »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:34 pm A day ya ain't allowed to do no work?

No wonder Jesus quit construction and went to preaching.
I'm thinking that preaching is the oldest* profession in the world. What a gig. Wave your arms around, send a few incantations into the air, and pass the bucket to collect your income.

* That other one is a close second I reckon.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The Jesus to whom atheists and others often refer

Post #30

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Eloi wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:14 pm There is an interesting information about the Sabbath Day in our Biblical Encyclopedia.

Rabbinic Sabbath Restrictions.
The Sabbath was originally intended to be a joyous, spiritually upbuilding time. But in their zeal to distinguish themselves from the Gentiles as much as possible, the Jewish religious leaders, especially after the return from Babylonian exile, gradually made it a burdensome thing by greatly increasing the Sabbath restrictions to 39, with innumerable lesser restrictions. These, when compiled, filled two large volumes. For example, catching a flea was forbidden as hunting. A sufferer could not be given relief unless death threatened. A bone could not be set, nor a sprain bandaged. The true purpose of the Sabbath was made void by these Jewish religious leaders, for they made the people slaves to tradition, instead of having the Sabbath serve men to the honor of God. (Mt 15:3, 6; 23:2-4; Mr 2:27) When Jesus’ disciples picked grain and rubbed it in their hands to eat, they evidently were accused on two counts, namely, harvesting and threshing on the Sabbath. (Lu 6:1, 2) The rabbis had a saying: “The sins of everyone who strictly observes every law of the Sabbath, though he be an idol worshiper, are forgiven.”

From https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003778

Would Jesus really be violating the Mosaic Sabbath Law if he broke any of these "sabbatical" demands of the rabbis that were just a particular way of interpreting that specific law? ... or rather Jesus would only be "violating" a human addition to the law?
Yes. This is a talking point. But the problem with the gospels is that we never get any discussion. The message is that the Rabbis are confounded when Jesus breaks (arguably) the Sabbath on his own authority. The argument of David and the Shewbread is not that the Sabbath was being broken in minor ways that didn't really matter but (because of the example of David - which is a nonsense -argument) that it is ok to break it (of it is being broken) because David ate Holy Shewbread.

Not only is this a silly argument that no Rabbi would accept, but there is never any discussion about it. The whole set up scene is of Jesus rather than being in the synagogue on the Saturday or at some house with his disciples ready to celebrate this Holy day, they are all strolling through a grainfield husking corn in full view of the Rabbis who have nothing better to do than shadow Jesus looking for some peccadillo to pounce on. Isn't clear that this is a set up apologetic by Christian writers wishing to show Jesus sidelining the Sabbath (as he does other Jewish rites) and by using a silly argument that would have not lasted five minutes against any rabbi who knew his job.

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