Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

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Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?


Demand animal sacrifices.
Demand the Hebrew commit genocide for a cultural misunderstanding.
A demon would murder planets because he was having a tantrum.
When the Hebrew's generations were weakened by following it, had them undergo genocides themselves.
A demon would allow Adam and Eve to be corrupted, for reasons opaque. (Perfect beings not intending to sin, sinning.)
A demon would be defeated by a greater power (Satan) yet claim victory.
A demon would turn people to salt for looking back.
A demon would claim to love you, while sending most folks to Hell.
A demon would write a book saying he was good, omnipotent and full of all sorts of propaganda.
A demon would re-name itself "God," to capitalize on the conflation with the benevolence of deities.

...and so on.

Can anyone provide good reason to not suspect Yahweh is a demon?

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

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Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:06 am Yes. I do argue that 'Oh...not one of the synoptics bothered to mention the raising of Lazarus, Jesus' most stunning miracle...because they all forgot or none of them thought it worth mentioning' does not wash. They never heard of it, just as John never heard of the Transfiguration, the Nativity (he tacitly denies it at 7.42) or the supposed assassination attempt at Nazareth (though he does use the 'prophet without honor' quote. That's why I argue that contradictions are real, they do discredit the Gospels and they also tell us how and why the gospels were written.
]
Yes, the Nativity....! A peasant class handworker needing to go from his home province to Bethlehem with his pregnant wife to a taxation census, when Herod Antipas was supervising his own taxation in Galilee..... I don't need to ask why that got missed out of G-Mark.... wow! Bin!
Lazarus....... I feel confident that G-Mark holds the memoirs of Cephas, who would never have ommitted such an act...... Bin!
The Transfiguration...... I think I can perceive that those three disciples did see Jesus above them illuminated by a low sun, hair blowing in wind, and then the evangelists got hold of it.
The murder attempt at Nazareth...... I don't mind that, Nazareth is a 1000+- rock above the plain, and it could have occured.
I like that 'Prophet without honour' quote, it fits us all in various ways, I think
However (though this is my basic and crucial argument about this whole Gospel, God and Christianity debate) it isn't the topic here. It would be more a debate about whether it would make more sense if God was the bad guy or He and Satan were identical (or in fact it's just 'mother nature' doing its' thing). Or at least it makes as much sense or more that rather than God casting out demons to make Jesus look good, he is their boss. But it's a simple argument and needn't detain us long, any more than the perfectly evident fact that Jesus did not know everything and God kept some knowledge from him. A topic for a new thread, perhaps.
Yes......... Nature... benevolent and dastardly both. I get the impression that many tribes bow to nature, pray to nature, give themselves back to nature at the end. But the idea that God who created the universe and all else with countless billions of galaxies each holding countless billions of star systems should pick this ball of dust 13+ billion years after everything here got started to place a creature (looking like him), the focus of his attention............ Bin!

I think there was a Jesus, it's just that folks like Paul used him for their spun up 'control the world' gambit.... Paul didn't even bother to write a thing and Jesus's actions or words apart from those last hours. Meh...... Bin!

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Post #12

Post by TRANSPONDER »

oldbadger wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:00 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:06 am Yes. I do argue that 'Oh...not one of the synoptics bothered to mention the raising of Lazarus, Jesus' most stunning miracle...because they all forgot or none of them thought it worth mentioning' does not wash. They never heard of it, just as John never heard of the Transfiguration, the Nativity (he tacitly denies it at 7.42) or the supposed assassination attempt at Nazareth (though he does use the 'prophet without honor' quote. That's why I argue that contradictions are real, they do discredit the Gospels and they also tell us how and why the gospels were written.
]
Yes, the Nativity....! A peasant class handworker needing to go from his home province to Bethlehem with his pregnant wife to a taxation census, when Herod Antipas was supervising his own taxation in Galilee..... I don't need to ask why that got missed out of G-Mark.... wow! Bin!
Lazarus....... I feel confident that G-Mark holds the memoirs of Cephas, who would never have ommitted such an act...... Bin!
The Transfiguration...... I think I can perceive that those three disciples did see Jesus above them illuminated by a low sun, hair blowing in wind, and then the evangelists got hold of it.
The murder attempt at Nazareth...... I don't mind that, Nazareth is a 1000+- rock above the plain, and it could have occured.
I like that 'Prophet without honour' quote, it fits us all in various ways, I think
However (though this is my basic and crucial argument about this whole Gospel, God and Christianity debate) it isn't the topic here. It would be more a debate about whether it would make more sense if God was the bad guy or He and Satan were identical (or in fact it's just 'mother nature' doing its' thing). Or at least it makes as much sense or more that rather than God casting out demons to make Jesus look good, he is their boss. But it's a simple argument and needn't detain us long, any more than the perfectly evident fact that Jesus did not know everything and God kept some knowledge from him. A topic for a new thread, perhaps.
Yes......... Nature... benevolent and dastardly both. I get the impression that many tribes bow to nature, pray to nature, give themselves back to nature at the end. But the idea that God who created the universe and all else with countless billions of galaxies each holding countless billions of star systems should pick this ball of dust 13+ billion years after everything here got started to place a creature (looking like him), the focus of his attention............ Bin!

I think there was a Jesus, it's just that folks like Paul used him for their spun up 'control the world' gambit.... Paul didn't even bother to write a thing and Jesus's actions or words apart from those last hours. Meh...... Bin!
I trust that we can discuss these Gospel problems as we go on. Also just what Paul learned from the disciples and whether Paul's views derived from what's in the gospels or the other way around. And yes, "Nature". I have said before that Evolution (natural selection) is not always nice, but it is true.

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

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Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:57 am I trust that we can discuss these Gospel problems as we go on. Also just what Paul learned from the disciples and whether Paul's views derived from what's in the gospels or the other way around. And yes, "Nature". I have said before that Evolution (natural selection) is not always nice, but it is true.
Paul....... well, I don't think that Paul bothered with anything that the disciples might have told him because he never mentioned a word about anything that any of them did, excepting during those last hours, and those are mostly junk, I think.
And the idea that the author of Mark copied from Paul's stuff might possibly be true where 'Christian waffle' was knitted in to the basic account but the basic story remaining looks like there was an attempt at social justice which frittered out.

Nature...... yes. The bottom line for everybody no matter who they are is 'Nature'. Scary at times, but ain't it fantastic when it's good for a person? :D

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Post #14

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Willum wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:19 pm Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?
Having never been shown to exist beyond the minds of humans, there's little reason to conclude he's any more'n a fantasy.

As we make our gods in our image, surely some'll have em a demonic one of em.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Post #15

Post by TRANSPONDER »

oldbadger wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 2:18 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:57 am I trust that we can discuss these Gospel problems as we go on. Also just what Paul learned from the disciples and whether Paul's views derived from what's in the gospels or the other way around. And yes, "Nature". I have said before that Evolution (natural selection) is not always nice, but it is true.
Paul....... well, I don't think that Paul bothered with anything that the disciples might have told him because he never mentioned a word about anything that any of them did, excepting during those last hours, and those are mostly junk, I think.
And the idea that the author of Mark copied from Paul's stuff might possibly be true where 'Christian waffle' was knitted in to the basic account but the basic story remaining looks like there was an attempt at social justice which frittered out.

Nature...... yes. The bottom line for everybody no matter who they are is 'Nature'. Scary at times, but ain't it fantastic when it's good for a person? :D
I will leave to another time my Take on a possible, likely and evident True story beneath the Pauline Christian overpainting, but the curious dismissal, almost of the Jesus in the Flesh by Paul is bothersome. And I even doubt the few supposed biographical details (1). All that Paul seems to have done is borrow the idea that Jesus didn't die but his spirit went back to heaven, and he'd return in their lifetimes. And to get to topic, how would anyone know it was Jesus and not a demon? How do we know that the risen Jesus' was not a demon pretending to be him? It makes no sense that his New Incorruptible body had the marks of crucifixion in other than demonic prosthetics for identification - purposes. And remember, neither Mary nor Cleophas knew his first off. Yes it would make more sense is Jesus was a demon. But then, isn't an angel a demon that is doing God's work? So what if Satan is actually God's goFor? Damn'... I flee to material skepticism because that's just too unsettling. :) Nature is scary. Which is why we invented gods, prayer and sacrifice as a way of trying to control what we couldn't control. But understanding removes fear. Nature is mostly trying to kill us. But it is amazing and awesome. More so than seeing it as a huge avert for God.

(1)For example, the reference to the night when Jesus was handed over to the dark powers is not this story of the betrayal by Judas to the Roman Quizlings (2), but God handing Jesus over to death to make a loophole in the Law.

(2) "We will ask ze questions...and you will provide ze answers."

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

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Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:22 am
I will leave to another time my Take on a possible, likely and evident True story beneath the Pauline Christian overpainting, but the curious dismissal, almost of the Jesus in the Flesh by Paul is bothersome. And I even doubt the few supposed biographical details (1). All that Paul seems to have done is borrow the idea that Jesus didn't die but his spirit went back to heaven, and he'd return in their lifetimes. And to get to topic, how would anyone know it was Jesus and not a demon? How do we know that the risen Jesus' was not a demon pretending to be him? It makes no sense that his New Incorruptible body had the marks of crucifixion in other than demonic prosthetics for identification - purposes. And remember, neither Mary nor Cleophas knew his first off. Yes it would make more sense is Jesus was a demon. But then, isn't an angel a demon that is doing God's work? So what if Satan is actually God's goFor? Damn'... I flee to material skepticism because that's just too unsettling. :) Nature is scary. Which is why we invented gods, prayer and sacrifice as a way of trying to control what we couldn't control. But understanding removes fear. Nature is mostly trying to kill us. But it is amazing and awesome. More so than seeing it as a huge avert for God.

(1)For example, the reference to the night when Jesus was handed over to the dark powers is not this story of the betrayal by Judas to the Roman Quizlings (2), but God handing Jesus over to death to make a loophole in the Law.

(2) "We will ask ze questions...and you will provide ze answers."
Hmmmm..... Paul. For me, Paul, his churches, letters, belief, the lot........ I just bin the lot and see what's left to work with.
The fact that he wrote nothing about Jesus shows me that he only wanted a figurehead for a massive congregation which could be guided and controlled by everlasting life, with the threat of everlasting burning if any should even breath a word against it.
Clever.

Question:- Do you dismiss healers.....? I ask because I'm wondering about spiritualists and mediums, and ....healers.

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Post #17

Post by TRANSPONDER »

oldbadger wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:50 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:22 am
I will leave to another time my Take on a possible, likely and evident True story beneath the Pauline Christian overpainting, but the curious dismissal, almost of the Jesus in the Flesh by Paul is bothersome. And I even doubt the few supposed biographical details (1). All that Paul seems to have done is borrow the idea that Jesus didn't die but his spirit went back to heaven, and he'd return in their lifetimes. And to get to topic, how would anyone know it was Jesus and not a demon? How do we know that the risen Jesus' was not a demon pretending to be him? It makes no sense that his New Incorruptible body had the marks of crucifixion in other than demonic prosthetics for identification - purposes. And remember, neither Mary nor Cleophas knew his first off. Yes it would make more sense is Jesus was a demon. But then, isn't an angel a demon that is doing God's work? So what if Satan is actually God's goFor? Damn'... I flee to material skepticism because that's just too unsettling. :) Nature is scary. Which is why we invented gods, prayer and sacrifice as a way of trying to control what we couldn't control. But understanding removes fear. Nature is mostly trying to kill us. But it is amazing and awesome. More so than seeing it as a huge avert for God.

(1)For example, the reference to the night when Jesus was handed over to the dark powers is not this story of the betrayal by Judas to the Roman Quizlings (2), but God handing Jesus over to death to make a loophole in the Law.

(2) "We will ask ze questions...and you will provide ze answers."
Hmmmm..... Paul. For me, Paul, his churches, letters, belief, the lot........ I just bin the lot and see what's left to work with.
The fact that he wrote nothing about Jesus shows me that he only wanted a figurehead for a massive congregation which could be guided and controlled by everlasting life, with the threat of everlasting burning if any should even breath a word against it.
Clever.

Question:- Do you dismiss healers.....? I ask because I'm wondering about spiritualists and mediums, and ....healers.
I don't want to drift too far from the topic...though the deafening absence of any Christian apologetics input is sorta leaving the stage open... but Paul is interesting for a sidelight on what was going on before the gospels and Acts (because - I argue - the gospels and Acts follow Paul, they don't predate him), the the basic Historical Jesus story might be before Paul, but not a lot, because Paul fled Damascus in the war of Aretas (36 AD) and Antipas lost that because he executed John, according to Josephus. So the original story could be going the rounds (including the Jewish claim that the disciples stole the body - Matthew 28.15) before 36 AD and the synoptic original some time after 60 AD when Paul's story ends. That's near 30 years for Pauline Christians to grab the original story (of a zealot Jesus executed by the Romans - there, I've Said It) and turn it into a Gentile -fancying Greek Christian story towards the end of the 1st c AD So it's no wonder that a fragment of John (Ryland) can be dated to the 2nd c AD and Matthew and Luke, frankly, even later.

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

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Post by oldbadger »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 am I don't want to drift too far from the topic...though the deafening absence of any Christian apologetics input is sorta leaving the stage open... but Paul is interesting for a sidelight on what was going on before the gospels and Acts (because - I argue - the gospels and Acts follow Paul, they don't predate him), the the basic Historical Jesus story might be before Paul, but not a lot, because Paul fled Damascus in the war of Aretas (36 AD) and Antipas lost that because he executed John, according to Josephus. So the original story could be going the rounds (including the Jewish claim that the disciples stole the body - Matthew 28.15) before 36 AD and the synoptic original some time after 60 AD when Paul's story ends. That's near 30 years for Pauline Christians to grab the original story (of a zealot Jesus executed by the Romans - there, I've Said It) and turn it into a Gentile -fancying Greek Christian story towards the end of the 1st c AD So it's no wonder that a fragment of John (Ryland) can be dated to the 2nd c AD and Matthew and Luke, frankly, even later.
OK....... Matthew, Luke and John with Acts all get writ after Paul and his letters, well after, and none of the authors was a witness to anything about Jesus. That's a really basic fact, I guess.

But Mark.... the author of Mark did witness parts of that account, and I think that the memoirs of Cephas were carried to it as well. Somebody was determined to get a different account out there. And so all the others had real anecdotes and stories carried forward in writings and traditions, but the whole lot including Mark need weeding to get rid of the Christian fiddlings, to leave a story of attempt and failure, possibly with a live Jesus being exiled......... enough folks claimed to see him afterwards, all those disciples, the people of Cornwall and Kashmire....... :D

But 'Demons'? There are plenty of human demons in the world but they're all temporal creatures who eat and go to the loo.

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

oldbadger wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:37 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 am I don't want to drift too far from the topic...though the deafening absence of any Christian apologetics input is sorta leaving the stage open... but Paul is interesting for a sidelight on what was going on before the gospels and Acts (because - I argue - the gospels and Acts follow Paul, they don't predate him), the the basic Historical Jesus story might be before Paul, but not a lot, because Paul fled Damascus in the war of Aretas (36 AD) and Antipas lost that because he executed John, according to Josephus. So the original story could be going the rounds (including the Jewish claim that the disciples stole the body - Matthew 28.15) before 36 AD and the synoptic original some time after 60 AD when Paul's story ends. That's near 30 years for Pauline Christians to grab the original story (of a zealot Jesus executed by the Romans - there, I've Said It) and turn it into a Gentile -fancying Greek Christian story towards the end of the 1st c AD So it's no wonder that a fragment of John (Ryland) can be dated to the 2nd c AD and Matthew and Luke, frankly, even later.
OK....... Matthew, Luke and John with Acts all get writ after Paul and his letters, well after, and none of the authors was a witness to anything about Jesus. That's a really basic fact, I guess.

But Mark.... the author of Mark did witness parts of that account, and I think that the memoirs of Cephas were carried to it as well. Somebody was determined to get a different account out there. And so all the others had real anecdotes and stories carried forward in writings and traditions, but the whole lot including Mark need weeding to get rid of the Christian fiddlings, to leave a story of attempt and failure, possibly with a live Jesus being exiled......... enough folks claimed to see him afterwards, all those disciples, the people of Cornwall and Kashmire....... :D

But 'Demons'? There are plenty of human demons in the world but they're all temporal creatures who eat and go to the loo.
Mark as we have it - no. It has been amended and added to just as Matthew and Luke did. There is a basic story ,but I do not believe it is eyewitness, though it may be a Christian overwriting of an original true story, simply because there is so much that the original story, common to all three have to try to explain away. Why invent a story that the writer then has to get rid of?

But that's all aside from the case of the topic - whether it makes more sense if the demons and Satan work for God rather than against him. Given that it is just an academic exercise and I do not credit any of these old tales, it makes more sense if Satan was doing God's work, or even God's work, direct. Just as it makes more sense..in fact it only makes sense..if Jesus didn't know everything , even if God did, and God just kept some things from him.

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Re: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Post #20

Post by William »

The God of The Bible and Dungeons and Dragons
In relation to "God" as presented through the Christian religion, there appear to be similarities between His position and that of the Dungeon Master in D&D where by, there are certain types of character to choose from that the player can become and certain attributes each character can have, weaknesses and strengths.

The DM sets the game environment and sets quests for the players to go through to reach objectives.

Creating gods in our own image
Perhaps the only way to checkmate Christianity in this game [battle] being played [fought/thought/fort], is to create a better idea of 'god' than they collectively have already done.

Otherwise I think we were born, already checkmated.

The Devil Is In The Details
Aetixintro: Should one say that the Devil is among the non-believers, the "Atheists", etc.?

William: I haven't identified anything within The Game to suggest it is a rule which must be followed. Discerning The Devil, whatever "Atheists etc" might mean to you personally, putting the shadow of evil onto it, would appear to be keeping it hidden, which would be in opposition to shining a light upon it.

However, since The Game is being played on many levels, those Eternal Entities which created said Game, created Human Avatars to play The Game through, so since it is a battle, it could be understood by us Humans at this level of The Game, that some of those Eternal Entities might be playing their Human Avatars against other Eternal Entities, and trying to trick and seduce us to keep things covered up, rather than revealed.

So my answer to your Question is "Maybe". One never knows so must be vigilant...rule of thumb being "If they are trying to hide things, then they are not on my 'side' of The Game..." but do I demonize them by casting a Shadow of Evil upon them?

I see no point in doing so, because I want all my demons lined up and willing to Play The Game of uncovering what is hidden.
They are the most deceived, thinking they work for good keeping things hidden from their own awareness's.

Inspired By YHWH
Stories inspire me to think about the God in the following way;

He is a recognizable being and has a recognizable form which is Hermaphrodite, but he leans toward the male aspect of his makeup.

From The Story inspired by YHWH:
Genesis 1/27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

YHWH is the product of the combined melding of creative abilities of a Father and a Mother Creator. He has an Hermaphrodite parent. The parent is the creator of the God YHWH. Such parents create Gods as offspring.

From The Story inspired by YHWH:
Genesis 1/27
male and female created he them.

In this YHWH split the Hermaphrodite aspects into a pair. Each of the pair represent the differing aspects of YHWH.

I think I am inspired by YHWH to know these things about YHWH...through the biblical accounts which YHWH inspired humans to write.

If God was the Devil, How Would You Know?

That we are all conditioned to think in terms of good/evil and make judgements based on that thinking, we are lost to approaching the question in other ways....
The issues are bound together in judgement, and so it must be, for those who base their judgements on conceptual misinformation derived through ides of good and evil gods.

Pealing Away The Cloaks to Reveal The Daggers
viewtopic.php?p=1002686#p1002686

How Cross Are You At The Creator?
viewtopic.php?p=1001705#p1001705

Getting Into Character
viewtopic.php?p=998899#p998899

The Doctrine of Satan
viewtopic.php?p=1036805#p1036805

Blood Sacrifice and the Abrahamic Idea of GOD
viewtopic.php?p=917573#p917573

"The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster"

As a Panetheist, the idea of Jesus being an aspect of GOD is no different than the idea that we are all aspects of GOD-Consciousness, so I don't personally hold that as being a false assertion, and certainly much of what Jesus does say speaks to the logic of Panentheism anyway.
In the same way, in relation to YHWH - and for that matter every human idea of GOD - I see something of the local GOD (The Earth Entity) attempting to express ideas into Its offspring to do with GOD which have then been twisted to suit the off-spring agenda which is contrary to the EE's agenda and therein sometimes acts of monstrosity are said to be perpetrated by the local GOD - dressed up as a humanoid on a throne - when it is men and men alone doing the dirty bizz in the name of this false idea of GOD.

In short, this 'off-spring agenda' revolves around the notion of how to actually control all the EE's off-spring in order to indirectly (and for that matter impermanently) control the EE.

(Adding the idea that GOD is ''Omni' simply adds to the confusion)

Therein is the manifestation of evil.

Christian Mythology and The Image of Satan

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38755
William: Shadows... beyond a shadow of a doubt..."In thinking more about that truly unknown thing called the sub or unconscious aspect of ourselves, I found myself thinking that we are to it, what our shadow is to us" this aligns well with the question someone recently asked;

Q: Can anyone give good reason to believe Yahweh is not a demon?

Loops and shadows. How the shadows 'see' the sub/unconscious aspects of themselves and "mirror-mirror".
viewtopic.php?p=1079590#p1079590

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