Predestination and justice

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Compassionist
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Predestination and justice

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?

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William
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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #21

Post by William »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to William in post #19]

Thank you for the interesting ideas.
How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God?
"Soul" "Sprit" "Eternal Entity" are reductions of data accumulation. On a personal level [as in "how do I know"] since experiencing "OOB" I have no option [if I am to remain honest] but to consider that data of experience as relative to my 'self-identity' so I am in the skin of an ape, but the personality being developed as "me" is done so directly through my nervous system [see here for more about that] and so underneath the flesh and bone of my human form, is the heart of a system which allows for me to even contemplate self-identification.
Coupling that data [my personal data of experience] with the stories humans tell of their subjective experiences, I can form a picture of the most likely overall picture of what is occurring - what we are all involved within.
For reasons of simplicity [re the complexity] I refer to the whole as a kind of Simulation Game-Play, because that is what it appears to be.

So it is not so much a matter of 'knowing' as it is a matter of guessing. I could be wrong, I could be right. The death of the body will show me I am right OR I will simply cease to exist/experience data.
The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
The bible is just one of many theist books and in that, the contradictions are about individual authors relaying their ideas based upon their particular beliefs, which - combined - are what produce the contradictions. Like with all theistic writings, it is wise to take the stories on the understanding that the individuals are relaying their experiences as the experiences were created through their beliefs and in correlation with their personal attitudes etc...it is unwise to think of such as reliable source re 'facts about reality' - as to do so means one is having to believe and in that, shaping ones beliefs and attitudes and [should there be more to experience after the death of the body] those beliefs and attitudes will have an effect on what it is the individual will create and experience for themselves.

My perspective [re logic] is that it is better to be somewhat prepared for the possibility that there is more to experience after the death of the body, than to believe that there will be nothing more to experience and be way less prepared as a consequence.

If I am wrong, then 'no problem' but if I am right, then 'no problem'... ;)

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #22

Post by Compassionist »

[Replying to William in post #21]

Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #23

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:57 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to William in post #19]

Thank you for the interesting ideas.
How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God?
"Soul" "Sprit" "Eternal Entity" are reductions of data accumulation. On a personal level [as in "how do I know"] since experiencing "OOB" I have no option [if I am to remain honest] but to consider that data of experience as relative to my 'self-identity' so I am in the skin of an ape, but the personality being developed as "me" is done so directly through my nervous system [see here for more about that] and so underneath the flesh and bone of my human form, is the heart of a system which allows for me to even contemplate self-identification.
Coupling that data [my personal data of experience] with the stories humans tell of their subjective experiences, I can form a picture of the most likely overall picture of what is occurring - what we are all involved within.
For reasons of simplicity [re the complexity] I refer to the whole as a kind of Simulation Game-Play, because that is what it appears to be.

So it is not so much a matter of 'knowing' as it is a matter of guessing. I could be wrong, I could be right. The death of the body will show me I am right OR I will simply cease to exist/experience data.
The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
The bible is just one of many theist books and in that, the contradictions are about individual authors relaying their ideas based upon their particular beliefs, which - combined - are what produce the contradictions. Like with all theistic writings, it is wise to take the stories on the understanding that the individuals are relaying their experiences as the experiences were created through their beliefs and in correlation with their personal attitudes etc...it is unwise to think of such as reliable source re 'facts about reality' - as to do so means one is having to believe and in that, shaping ones beliefs and attitudes and [should there be more to experience after the death of the body] those beliefs and attitudes will have an effect on what it is the individual will create and experience for themselves.

My perspective [re logic] is that it is better to be somewhat prepared for the possibility that there is more to experience after the death of the body, than to believe that there will be nothing more to experience and be way less prepared as a consequence.

If I am wrong, then 'no problem' but if I am right, then 'no problem'... ;)
I've writ it before, and I'll writ it again - yours is a very unique and intelligent voice that needs to be heard. Not just here, but everywhere.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #24

Post by William »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:29 pm [Replying to William in post #21]

Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
Do you mean as in, drug induced, or something else?

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #25

Post by oldbadger »

William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:57 pm The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
The bible is just one of many theist books and in that, the contradictions are about individual authors relaying their ideas based upon their particular beliefs, which - combined - are what produce the contradictions. Like with all theistic writings, it is wise to take the stories on the understanding that the individuals are relaying their experiences as the experiences were created through their beliefs and in correlation with their personal attitudes etc...it is unwise to think of such as reliable source re 'facts about reality' - as to do so means one is having to believe and in that, shaping ones beliefs and attitudes and [should there be more to experience after the death of the body] those beliefs and attitudes will have an effect on what it is the individual will create and experience for themselves.

My perspective [re logic] is that it is better to be somewhat prepared for the possibility that there is more to experience after the death of the body, than to believe that there will be nothing more to experience and be way less prepared as a consequence.

If I am wrong, then 'no problem' but if I am right, then 'no problem'... ;)
[/quote]

Could I ask some questions?
1. Do you believe in Spirits, mediums and spiritual healers?
2. Do animals have spirits and souls?
3. Is there any historical evidence of value in, say, the Gospel of Mark, or is it all theistic belief?

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #26

Post by Miles »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:34 pm [Replying to William in post #19]

Thank you for the interesting ideas. How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God? The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?
....... EASY.. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE:

........................... Image


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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #27

Post by Compassionist »

William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:22 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:29 pm [Replying to William in post #21]

Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
Do you mean as in, drug induced, or something else?
I don't mean drug-induced or anything else. Some people have out-of-body experience when they have a heart attack. What triggered yours? Some people claim to be able to have out-of-body experiences at will. I don't know if they just hallucinate or if their consciousness actually leaves their bodies.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #28

Post by William »

Compassionist wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:33 am
William wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:22 pm
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:29 pm [Replying to William in post #21]

Please tell me more about your out-of-body experience. How do you know that it was not a hallucination?
Do you mean as in, drug induced, or something else?
I don't mean drug-induced or anything else. Some people have out-of-body experience when they have a heart attack. What triggered yours? Some people claim to be able to have out-of-body experiences at will. I don't know if they just hallucinate or if their consciousness actually leaves their bodies.
That they are referred to as "Out of Body" is because the experience is this. Whether the experiences I had were hallucinations or not, I cannot say. I can only say that the experiences were had.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #29

Post by William »

[Replying to oldbadger in post #25]
Could I ask some questions?
1. Do you believe in Spirits, mediums and spiritual healers?
2. Do animals have spirits and souls?
3. Is there any historical evidence of value in, say, the Gospel of Mark, or is it all theistic belief?
1: My understanding is that I [the human personality] am relating with vaster aspects of my self which I view as being 'subconscious' and I am practicing conscious interaction with rather than remaining unconscious of these aspects of self so in that sense my conscious self [the human personality] is the recipient and the medium is the experiential reality and the subconscious self is the healer.
In that, it is not so much a belief as a growing understanding of the nature of the experiential reality I am currently involved within.

2: I do not see it that I have a "Spirit" but that I AM a Spirit...I understand consciousness as being "Spirit" and the animal form [which includes the human form] as a receptacle/avatar which consciousness uses. I understand the "Soul" is an aspect of consciousness which stores the data of experience I have, while involved in the experiential reality.

3: viewtopic.php?p=1078016#p1078016

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #30

Post by oldbadger »

William wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:18 pm [Replying to oldbadger in post #25]
Could I ask some questions?
1. Do you believe in Spirits, mediums and spiritual healers?
2. Do animals have spirits and souls?
3. Is there any historical evidence of value in, say, the Gospel of Mark, or is it all theistic belief?
1: My understanding is that I [the human personality] am relating with vaster aspects of my self which I view as being 'subconscious' and I am practicing conscious interaction with rather than remaining unconscious of these aspects of self so in that sense my conscious self [the human personality] is the recipient and the medium is the experiential reality and the subconscious self is the healer.
In that, it is not so much a belief as a growing understanding of the nature of the experiential reality I am currently involved within.

2: I do not see it that I have a "Spirit" but that I AM a Spirit...I understand consciousness as being "Spirit" and the animal form [which includes the human form] as a receptacle/avatar which consciousness uses. I understand the "Soul" is an aspect of consciousness which stores the data of experience I have, while involved in the experiential reality.

: viewtopic.php?p=1078016#p1078016
OK. So you do believe in Spirits, mediums and healers. Well, that's what your answer looks like to me.
And animals do have spirits and souls, same as yourself. Yes?
And the gospel of Mark doesn't have a lot of truth in it...mostly from bedside stories, is that your opinion?
I hope I got that about right.

Fair enough, but I tend to think that G-Mark is a real deposition from a disciple who was unhappy with Paul's stuff and wanted to set the record straight.....of course the insertions and other waffle does need to be redacted for a true story to surface. But as a Deist I cannot accept any divine interventions that are recorded in the gospels or anywhere else....... Nature only for me, which is pretty scary.......! :)

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