Predestination and justice

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Compassionist
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Predestination and justice

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?

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POI
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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #11

Post by POI »

Tcg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:08 pm It is not very satisfying I'm afraid. It more or less boils down to God does whatever he wants and since it is God doing it, it is just.
Yes, I would guess God's brand of justice is 'might makes right"?
Tcg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:08 pm I think that the real answer is that there is no justice, at least no final and fair justice. Humans tend to not like this answer though, so most if not all religions have developed some kind of scheme to convince their followers there will be in the next life. Of course, if there is no next life none of these schemes are valid.
Great point. And we likely make our own "justice".
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #12

Post by POI »

oldbadger wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:36 pm My second son predestined to die after a few weeks?
I'm very sorry to hear that. I can only imagine!
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #13

Post by Compassionist »

oldbadger wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:36 pm
POI wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:52 pm Define God's "justice"?
For Jesus and the Jews?
The Old Laws of Moses, all 613 of them, back then.

But that was the God of the Israelites...... Jesus wanted a return of the poor laws (most).

But the idea of Predestination is ......... very strange. My second son predestined to die after a few weeks?
Pointless stuff imo.
I am so sorry that your second son died so young. In a just world, that would never happen.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #14

Post by brunumb »

Humans invented the concept of justice. When God acts in ways that contradict our notion of justice, instead of redefining or correcting the term, believers simply find excuses for their God. He must be whitewashed at any cost.

If there are valid reasons that some people are predestined to end up in Hell after a finite term on earth, wouldn't it be better to send them there directly and leave the righteous to enjoy a blissful earthly existence without their corrupting influence? I suppose one then has to ask, why any interval on earth at all? After that the questions just keep piling up. One thing is for sure, remove God from the equation and almost every question simply disappears. That's because God is nothing more than an invented answer.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

brunumb wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:06 pm Humans invented the concept of justice. When God acts in ways that contradict our notion of justice, instead of redefining or correcting the term, believers simply find excuses for their God. He must be whitewashed at any cost.

If there are valid reasons that some people are predestined to end up in Hell after a finite term on earth, wouldn't it be better to send them there directly and leave the righteous to enjoy a blissful earthly existence without their corrupting influence? I suppose one then has to ask, why any interval on earth at all? After that the questions just keep piling up. One thing is for sure, remove God from the equation and almost every question simply disappears. That's because God is nothing more than an invented answer.
Indeed. The invention of God creates the need to explain the near endless list of problems the invention itself creates. It's not terribly different from a Rube Goldberg machine except that it is one that doesn't really work. The lightbulb never goes on.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #16

Post by oldbadger »

POI wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 5:02 pm
oldbadger wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:36 pm My second son predestined to die after a few weeks?
I'm very sorry to hear that. I can only imagine!
Thank you... POI.
The idea of a Created Predestined World from God, once I've thought about situations like the Cambodia massacres, the Holocaust, all the World's tragedies, is:- What a lousy worthless creation that would be, then.

Stuff like this, you couldn't make it up........ but they did.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #17

Post by oldbadger »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 5:45 pm
oldbadger wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:36 pm
POI wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:52 pm Define God's "justice"?
For Jesus and the Jews?
The Old Laws of Moses, all 613 of them, back then.

But that was the God of the Israelites...... Jesus wanted a return of the poor laws (most).

But the idea of Predestination is ......... very strange. My second son predestined to die after a few weeks?
Pointless stuff imo.
I am so sorry that your second son died so young. In a just world, that would never happen.
Thank you.
Being a Deist I think the resident super-power in this Universe is Nature.
Now that I can accept, but an involved God? What!!!? :)

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #18

Post by oldbadger »

brunumb wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:06 pm Humans invented the concept of justice. When God acts in ways that contradict our notion of justice, instead of redefining or correcting the term, believers simply find excuses for their God. He must be whitewashed at any cost.

If there are valid reasons that some people are predestined to end up in Hell after a finite term on earth, wouldn't it be better to send them there directly and leave the righteous to enjoy a blissful earthly existence without their corrupting influence? I suppose one then has to ask, why any interval on earth at all? After that the questions just keep piling up. One thing is for sure, remove God from the equation and almost every question simply disappears. That's because God is nothing more than an invented answer.
I don't think that theism is all about righteousness and justice in life, but being able to do whatever the hell most theists want, being able to justify it, together with the 'feel-good-factor' that they'll be in an elite club after death surviving for ever, and all their hated enemies definitely not making it but existing in an infinity of torture. Sounds like a really good scam to me.

The Romans figured out a three-day self torture to slow death on a cross......dreadful, what a deterrent! But theists topped that one.....self torture for ever.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #19

Post by William »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:42 pm https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination If God predestined the lives of humans, how can it be just for God to send some to heaven and some to hell?
The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.
{SOURCE}
Taking [3] into consideration;
[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.
your question can be answered that Justice is served and that it is not any Spirit [God] but ones self who 'sends' that self to the places that self experiences.

That is the short answer.

re the "combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did" and predestination, The game is created by Spirit Entities [the players] and is naturally complex.

The idea is for an Eternal Entity [EE] to enter the Human Avatar [HA] and become completely unaware of any prior existence. The HA provides the means in which this amnesia is made possible.

From that point on, a character forms and personality develops - none of which are reflective of the EE [game player]. The Character and Personality formed through the interaction, are purely fictional in relation to the EE, but have the potential to be 'made real', which is accomplished through Phases of experience, which include experiences of heavens and hells.

Heavens and Hells are part of the Game-Play experience.

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Re: Predestination and justice

Post #20

Post by Compassionist »

[Replying to William in post #19]

Thank you for the interesting ideas. How do you know there is such a thing called the soul or spirit or eternal entity or heaven or hell or God? The Bible is full of contradictions and inaccuracies. How can I possibly rely on the Bible to give me facts about reality?

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