The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

[Compassionist]

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

[1213]

... It was God who hardened his heart in order to keep this business of plagues going. ...

There is nothing in the Bible that supports your version of the story.

O Rly Exodus 9. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Up to then Pharaoh's heart was hardened,...

I don't think that means God hardened his heart for that He could continue to cause plagues. Also, when it was good times that hardened pharaohs heart, to demand that God does not harden pharaohs heart would mean that God must make them eternal plagues. Only way to keep pharaohs heart soft was to keep the plagues going forever.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

I think the overall problem isn't about the God of the bible, but about the idea of this experiential reality being mindfully created [inferring a creator of some kind] and that is why 'the problem of evil' was invented.

It appears that there is no problem of evil with being part of this experiential reality as long as one believes it is a purely mindless purposeless accident of a thing, but as soon as a creative mind is implied as the cause of it existing, 'the problem of evil' becomes an issue and a reason for why folk shy away from or vigorously oppose the notion of, which I find interesting.

As an argument, I find the "problem of evil" to being on par with the "problem of unicorns".

[JehovahsWitness]

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

Yes and this simple fact is rejected by those that insist that "to hardened pharoahs heart" can ONLY be a metaphor for " influenced Pharaoh's mind to make him refuse to release the israelites when he was actually inclined " and that is the single unique meaning possible, no other can possible interpretations can be proposed and that all discussions must be based on accepting this single universal meaning.


Go figure,


JW

[Compassionist]

...One can't be all-knowing and all-powerful without being guilty of everything that is wrong with all that exists. ...

Sorry, I disagree with that.

What is the basis of your disagreeing, please?

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

I think the overall problem isn't about the God of the bible, but about the idea of this experiential reality being mindfully created [inferring a creator of some kind] and that is why 'the problem of evil' was invented.

It appears that there is no problem of evil with being part of this experiential reality as long as one believes it is a purely mindless purposeless accident of a thing, but as soon as a creative mind is implied as the cause of it existing, 'the problem of evil' becomes an issue and a reason for why folk shy away from or vigorously oppose the notion of, which I find interesting.

As an argument, I find the "problem of evil" to being on par with the "problem of unicorns".

The Bible claims in Genesis that God made the world and all the living things within. What is more, God even makes evil: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7, The Bible (KJV). That's why if the Bible is true, the Biblical God is omniculpable and evil. If the allegedly omniscient and omnipotent Biblical God had made all created beings equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent then the Devil would not even have wanted to harm Adam and Eve and Adam. If Adam and Eve were all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with they would not have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. If the Bible is true, then it is all God's fault and God should be punished accordingly by God.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

I think the overall problem isn't about the God of the bible, but about the idea of this experiential reality being mindfully created [inferring a creator of some kind] and that is why 'the problem of evil' was invented.

It appears that there is no problem of evil with being part of this experiential reality as long as one believes it is a purely mindless purposeless accident of a thing, but as soon as a creative mind is implied as the cause of it existing, 'the problem of evil' becomes an issue and a reason for why folk shy away from or vigorously oppose the notion of, which I find interesting.

As an argument, I find the "problem of evil" to being on par with the "problem of unicorns".

The Bible claims in Genesis that God made the world and all the living things within. What is more, God even makes evil: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7, The Bible (KJV). That's why if the Bible is true, the Biblical God is omniculpable and evil. If the allegedly omniscient and omnipotent Biblical God had made all created beings equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent then the Devil would not even have wanted to harm Adam and Eve and Adam. If Adam and Eve were all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with they would not have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. If the Bible is true, then it is all God's fault and God should be punished accordingly by God.

Are you therefore saying that if the idea that a creative mind is involved with why this experiential reality and we within it, happens to exist, that as long as that mind behind its existence is not the biblical idea of said Creator, that you can accept that there is no evil intent of the part of said mind, involved in creating this reality?

[JoeyKnothead]

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

Yes and this simple fact is rejected by those that insist that "to hardened pharoahs heart" can ONLY be a metaphor for " influenced Pharaoh's mind to make him refuse to release the israelites when he was actually inclined " and that is the single unique meaning possible, no other can possible interpretations can be proposed and that all discussions must be based on accepting this single universal meaning.


Go figure,


JW

The story sure reads like ol Pharoah there got him the hypertrophic cardiomyopathy on account of God.

[William]

When we metaphor, we allow a potential multitude of interpretations...

Yes and this simple fact is rejected by those that insist that "to hardened pharoahs heart" can ONLY be a metaphor for " influenced Pharaoh's mind to make him refuse to release the israelites when he was actually inclined " and that is the single unique meaning possible, no other can possible interpretations can be proposed and that all discussions must be based on accepting this single universal meaning.


Go figure,


JW

The story sure reads like ol Pharoah there got him the hypertrophic cardiomyopathy on account of God.

hypertrophic cardiomyopathy = A condition in which the heart muscle becomes abnormally thick.
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy makes it hard for the heart to pump blood. It often goes undiagnosed.
Most people with the condition have no symptoms and experience no significant problems. For some, it can cause shortness of breath, chest pain or abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias).
Treatment may include surgery, an implantable device or medication to slow or regulate the heart rate.

[brunumb]

It is not a case of "rewriting" anything; the expression is obviously a metaphor for something since the heart is a muscle that has to be flexible to work; taken literally a hard heart would lead to a massive heart attack and immediate death.

The thing about metaphor is it is not always apparent what is meant and this more so when one crosses culture and language. Unless one is the Pope or has mind-reading powers, one should first ask the question: What does this expression mean? And since literature is not math, be ready for someone to disagree with your conclusion.

OK then. In the context of the passage where God hardens the pharaoh's heart, what does the expression, and hence the passage, mean?

[JoeyKnothead]

It is not a case of "rewriting" anything; the expression is obviously a metaphor for something since the heart is a muscle that has to be flexible to work; taken literally a hard heart would lead to a massive heart attack and immediate death.

The thing about metaphor is it is not always apparent what is meant and this more so when one crosses culture and language. Unless one is the Pope or has mind-reading powers, one should first ask the question: What does this expression mean? And since literature is not math, be ready for someone to disagree with your conclusion.

OK then. In the context of the passage where God hardens the pharaoh's heart, what does the expression, and hence the passage, mean?

I'm with brunumb. The passage seems pretty straight forward, even if metaphor.