The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

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Compassionist
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The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #131

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Eloi wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:45 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:27 am (...)
Eloi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:34 pm Humans are not animals. O:) Some humans act like animals sometimes. 8-) Some want to treat others like animals and convince them that is what they are. :x

Humans are very far from animals in intellectual abilities. We have intelligence; we consider existence and life; we appreciate abstract things like beuty and love. We meditate on things, we study them carefully, we draw conclusions and then use them to create things and solve more complex situations.

We enjoy the views of the landscapes, the colors of nature, the taste of the fruits, the pleasant sound of the birds, the shows of butterflies and flowers and birds and fishes. All of that was created for us to enjoy... Animals don't enjoy it like we do. They are skills that no one needs to survive; God gave them to us so that we would be happy in the house that he made for us.

We are God's supreme creation on earth, and the ones He gave the planet to take care of... not the animals. We do not interbreed genetically with animals.
Human are animals. We behave physically and instinctively like animals. We are genetically and biochemically animals. We are morphologically and and anatomically animals. That our problem solving is of an extraordinary order no more has made us non animals than the ability of birds to fly or chameleons to change colour makes them non -animals.
I remember that a few years ago a very hot topic of debate was whether or not atheists could act morally or ethically. Atheists tried to defend the idea that morals/ethics were important even if someone was an atheist.

Now the matter has taken an important turn: they no longer care to defend the ethical or moral values ​​of atheists. Now what they want is to make people believe that humans are animals and that they do not have to follow any moral or ethical principle. Although they do not say it in those words, it is obvious that this is what they are implying. Perhaps it is the way to justify why they have brought humanity to the point where it is now or why they do not have any rules in their personal lives that limit them from doing what they deem necessary to satisfy their own desires and needs.

But the Creator of everything is not going to allow unscrupulous people to continue ruining humanity and the planet. He is going to clean soon this house that he gave to humans; he is going to take control away from those who have it for managing so badly what he put in their care, and he is going to put it in the hands of people who love justice and truth.

Jesus Christ said that the world would be like in the days of Noah, and I say: giving the Creator the same reasons to destroy a human generation that all the time is thinking of doing some harm and acting aggressively and violently harming the planet and other persons. The Bible says that in the days of Noah it was also like that. Today there is a new version: the idea that people are animals. If the Creator of the planet and humans does not put an end to this, these kind of persons who are trying to corrupt humanity with such thoughts would lead the planet and humanity to their own extinction.

Gen. 6:5 Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time.
6 Jehovah regretted that he had made men on the earth, and his heart was saddened. 7 So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, creeping animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.
It would help if you understood the atheist (secular humanist) argument, rather than a perverted idea from Christian propaganda.

Moreover, I suspect that you are without excuse, as it was already said (as I recall) that higher animals have to basic instincts of ethics and co -operation. Humans are animals, sure, but we have advanced reasoning (which nevertheless did not fall out of the sky but evolved from the social instincts of pack co -operation and the ethics of tribal ties) and thus Social morality and ethics emerged from complex society as rule of thumb practical laws and later on as philosophy in ethics.

In short, the secularist argument is that we are Reasoning animals and thus our ethics are valid and just over the last decade or so, have been understood to be based on animal biology and instinct and no god is required, particular not one with such poor morals as the one in the Bible.

I don't think I need comment on your promises (or threats). If I don't credit your Bible, I certainly don't credit your prophecies.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #132

Post by Eloi »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 9:54 am (...) atheist (secular humanist) (...)
Hehehe, what a great joke! How can you speak of "humanism" if you consider yourselves animals?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #133

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Eloi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:51 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 9:54 am (...) atheist (secular humanist) (...)
Hehehe, what a great joke! How can you speak of "humanism" if you consider yourselves animals?
..

Because humans are reasoning animals. You seem to have an idea that animals by definition cannot reason. However the evidence is that other species of Humans (e.g Neanderthals) also reasoned, and Elephants and Dolphins seem to have emotions and social order. Just having problem solving of an order that we can debate Isms does not preclude us being an animal, no more than being an animal precludes problem -solving.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #134

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #2]
Unbelievable. Are you going to teach me what an animal is and what a human is?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #135

Post by brunumb »

Eloi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:51 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 9:54 am (...) atheist (secular humanist) (...)
Hehehe, what a great joke! How can you speak of "humanism" if you consider yourselves animals?
That's easy. Humans are animals. It's not rocket science, except maybe for the chronic science-deniers.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #136

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Eloi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:34 pm Humans are not animals. O:) Some humans act like animals sometimes. 8-) Some want to treat others like animals and convince them that is what they are. :x

Humans are very far from animals in intellectual abilities. We have intelligence; we consider existence and life; we appreciate abstract things like beuty and love. We meditate on things, we study them carefully, we draw conclusions and then use them to create things and solve more complex situations.

We enjoy the views of the landscapes, the colors of nature, the taste of the fruits, the pleasant sound of the birds, the shows of butterflies and flowers and birds and fishes. All of that was created for us to enjoy... Animals don't enjoy it like we do. They are skills that no one needs to survive; God gave them to us so that we would be happy in the house that he made for us.

We are God's supreme creation on earth, and the ones He gave the planet to take care of... not the animals. We do not interbreed genetically with animals.
Step away from the bible.

Humans're every much an animal as pigs're delicious.

And we interbreed with animals right before every time we end up having to pay child support.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #137

Post by William »

Theism - by nature - is the human consciousness within the animal, reaching out to other possible conclusions regarding the human situation.

Most NDE stories have a shared thread through the telling. NDEs have likely been around as long as human beings and probably factor in a good percentage of why theistic thinking evolved alongside human development and understanding of the self.

What most folk tend to experience with NDE has to do with observing their bodies from another perspective and in that, the body is seen objectively and not identified by the person as being who they are.

NDEs often allow for a person to understand themselves as something other than the body - a difficult thing to achieve from the perspective of consistently experiencing life from the perspective of being the body, which is why folk tend to self-identify as the body - especially those who believe that their consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and have never experienced anything else which might go a long way in convincing them otherwise.

There is no doubt that the human body is biological and in the animal class as per human categorizations.

But there is doubt as to whether such is the true nature of human consciousness, or for that matter, that animal consciousness in general is truly/only animal in character.

Tying that in with the OPQ...is the Biblical God's conduct of breathing life into [making conscious] the human animal form, something which requires blame?

To me, it seems to boil down [yet again] to the mirror-mirror mentality. If we attribute evil to nature, then the one who created nature can only be seen as evil. Same goes for good.
Since, generally, folk appear to attribute both good and evil as aspects of nature, we are confronted with the peculiarity of apparent contradiction, which isn't helpful.

It does appear that most folk cannot get their heads around it.

viewtopic.php?p=1079850#p1079850

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #138

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Eloi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 6:32 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #2]
Unbelievable. Are you going to teach me what an animal is and what a human is?
:D Gladly, if you're willing to learn.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #139

Post by Candle »

Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:38 pm I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?
Pharaoh was not punished for hardening his heart. He was punished for mistreating the children of Israel and refusing to let them leave. All the hardening of his heart was merely a means to an end.

If, as you say, "All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights," from where do those rights come, and what is there to ensure that they are not violated?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #140

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Candle wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:03 pm If, as you say, "All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights," from where do those rights come, and what is there to ensure that they are not violated?
Those rights come from entities capable of taking em away.

There's no assurance a right enjoyed today ain't taken away tomorrow.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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