The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

[Compassionist]

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)

“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’

I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

[Compassionist]

Firstly, I am distressed to hear that you are in a delicate state of mind. I think you are missing out on a lot and I might suggest that you get some advice. A lot of depression can be helped by a pill or two.

Second, while evolution is not nice, we have been able to do better because we can adapt the environment to us rather than us having to adapt to the environment. I am well aware of the problems that we face, and the point is that technology can enable us to fly where evolution has said we can't. That many people are too poor to fly is not the point but I'll observe that people could fly in 2020 a lot more cheaply and easily than in 1920. It's not perfect but it is much much better, And working to make it better rather than whining because it's not perfect is the answer.

Which is all about politics, society and ethics, of course and nothing that I can tell to do with any possible god or religion. I totally reject any efforts to tell us that we should all be miserable, terrified and without hope just so we can all be herded into Church - not that I suppose that was your idea.

Thank you for your reply. I have been suffering from PTSD for almost 40 years and Bipolar Disorder for almost 25 years and chronic pain for almost 14 years. I have taken many medications over the years. I am still taking 600 mg of Quetiapine XL per night.

MOOD SCALE

+5: Total loss of judgement, exorbitant spending, religious delusions or hallucinations.
+4: Lost touch with reality, incoherent, no sleep, paranoid and vindictive, reckless behaviour.
+3: Inflated self-esteem, rapid thoughts and speech, counter-productive simultaneous tasks.
+2: Very productive, everything to excess, charming and talkative.
+1: Self-esteem good, optimistic, sociable and articulate, good decisions and get work done.
0: Mood in balance, no symptoms of depression or mania.
-1: Slight withdrawal from social situations, concentration less than usual, slight agitation.
-2: Feeling of panic and anxiety, concentration difficult and memory poor, some comfort in routine.
-3: Slow thinking, no appetite, need to be alone, sleep excessive or difficult, everything a struggle.
-4: Feeling of hopelessness and guilt, thoughts of suicide, little movement, impossible to do anything.
-5: Endless suicidal thoughts, no way out, no movement, everything is bleak and it will always be like this.

If you have not been at every point of the above mood scale I use to monitor myself, you won't know what it is like.

I agree that humans have made many improvemnts to our standard of living, our quality of life, and our average lifespan thanks to science. However, we still can't prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths and make all living things forever happy.

[TRANSPONDER]

I feel for you and (while I have had my problems) I can't put myself in your position. I do hope that you can get help to attain a better frame of mind. But while I understand where you are coming from, that does not make it an empirical verity for anyone else. Let alone any kind of argument for God or against humanism.

[Compassionist]

I feel for you and (while I have had my problems) I can't put myself in your position. I do hope that you can get help to attain a better frame of mind. But while I understand where you are coming from, that does not make it an empirical verity for anyone else. Let alone any kind of argument for God or against humanism.

Thank you. You have missed my points. I am not arguing against humanism. My main points are the following:

1. Biological organisms are not all-knowing and all-powerful.
2. Biological organisms make choices according to their genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.
3. Biological organisms have not been able to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths.
4. Biological organisms are not forever happy.
5. The Bible is full of horrors and injustice. Please see https://evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
6. If the Bible is true, then the Biblical God is evil and real. If the Bible is false, then the Biblical God is evil and imaginary.
7. There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

All seven of my points are entirely based on evidence and sound reasoning.

[TRANSPONDER]

I feel for you and (while I have had my problems) I can't put myself in your position. I do hope that you can get help to attain a better frame of mind. But while I understand where you are coming from, that does not make it an empirical verity for anyone else. Let alone any kind of argument for God or against humanism.

Thank you. You have missed my points. I am not arguing against humanism. My main points are the following:

1. Biological organisms are not all-knowing and all-powerful.
2. Biological organisms make choices according to their genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.
3. Biological organisms have not been able to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths.
4. Biological organisms are not forever happy.
5. The Bible is full of horrors and injustice. Please see https://evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
6. If the Bible is true, then the Biblical God is evil and real. If the Bible is false, then the Biblical God is evil and imaginary.
7. There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

All seven of my points are entirely based on evidence and sound reasoning.

Yes, but the points about Biblegod have no place in the rest which are purely biological and philosophical (determinism or not). The two subjects (our biological and social conditions) and Biblegod (whether it is credible or not) are quite unrelated.

[1213]

I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.

To me, it is clear that the intention of the plagues was to intimidate the pharaoh and make him capitulate. When it worked God, intervened to make the pharaoh change his mind thus causing God to unleash more devastation. Please quote the passages that clearly show that the pharaoh's mind changed as a result of a plague ending.

It is not directly told in the Bible how God hardened pharaohs heart. But, it is clear from the actions. First cause was obviously that God made Israelites to ask freedom (Exodus 7). Pharaoh didn't like that and made their work even harder from the previous. There is nothing indicating that God did something more or some evil way altered pharaoh's mind against his will.

[1213]

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice...

By killing everything? I think what you say would mean that evil people would not have even this life.

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will.

That is sad. In that case it would be best, if I would speak directly to the one who determines what you say.

...All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. ...

I have free will and I am guilty for all of my own actions and choices.

We live in a reality full of suffering, injustice and deaths. If the Biblical God made this reality then he is guilty of failing to prevent all the suffering, injustice and deaths. It's possible that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil instead of being real and evil.

Interesting thing is that by what the Bible tells, everything was good when God created it. Then people decided to reject God, and God allowed it and we were expelled to this godless world. I think people have chosen own suffering.

...What is more, God even makes evil: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7, The Bible (KJV). ...

Evil is actually nothing, it is like darkness or emptiness, lack of good. When God creates evil, it happens by letting people to be without Him (good). And I think it is what people want. Would it be good, if God would force you to be good?

...I define free will as a will that is free to do anything ...

I think that is wrong and stupid definition. Free will means person is free to want what ever he wants. It does not mean everything also goes as he wants. Free will is not the same as omnipotence.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #49]

Because person should be guilty only for his own actions.

I was watching a vid yesterday - this one;

...

and the Rabbi was saying the same thing in relation to how the Messiah isn't someone who dies for the sins of others...

Interesting video. It would have been nice that he would have supported his claims by showing the scriptures. There were many things that I disagree with him, but also things that I agree. Maybe the most important thing that I would like to people to know is, by what the New Testament says, Jesus is not the one and only true God. It would be nice if people would get event that one thing correct.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

But, about the dying for sins. I think also that is commonly wrong understanding. But, I don't blame the rabbi for that. Many Christians have misunderstood the whole thing. Jesus forgave sins even before his death, so death was not required for to forgive sins.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Jesus was sent to declare forgiveness and was killed because of that and in that way it can be said he died because of our sins, but his death was not required for forgiveness.

[1213]

...Do you not know what's in your own Bible, or are you hoping I won't check or are you convinced that it says what you want it to say rather than what it does say? ...

Yes, I know, therefore I can say you are wrong. There is no scripture that says God altered pharaohs mind in some evil way. By what the story tells, pharaoh's heart was first hardened by they demand that he should let the people go. There is nothing in the scriptures that tells the hardening happened in some supernatural evil way.

[Compassionist]

I feel for you and (while I have had my problems) I can't put myself in your position. I do hope that you can get help to attain a better frame of mind. But while I understand where you are coming from, that does not make it an empirical verity for anyone else. Let alone any kind of argument for God or against humanism.

Thank you. You have missed my points. I am not arguing against humanism. My main points are the following:

1. Biological organisms are not all-knowing and all-powerful.
2. Biological organisms make choices according to their genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.
3. Biological organisms have not been able to go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths.
4. Biological organisms are not forever happy.
5. The Bible is full of horrors and injustice. Please see https://evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
6. If the Bible is true, then the Biblical God is evil and real. If the Bible is false, then the Biblical God is evil and imaginary.
7. There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

All seven of my points are entirely based on evidence and sound reasoning.

Yes, but the points about Biblegod have no place in the rest which are purely biological and philosophical (determinism or not). The two subjects (our biological and social conditions) and Biblegod (whether it is credible or not) are quite unrelated.

If the Biblical God is real then he made organisms, their genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. So, it is not unrelated.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Do you not know what's in your own Bible, or are you hoping I won't check or are you convinced that it says what you want it to say rather than what it does say? ...

Yes, I know, therefore I can say you are wrong. There is no scripture that says God altered pharaohs mind in some evil way. By what the story tells, pharaoh's heart was first hardened by they demand that he should let the people go. There is nothing in the scriptures that tells the hardening happened in some supernatural evil way.

I love it. You have shifted the goal posts. Not that it does you much good. Trundling over someones' free will and making them say what they did not intend to say just so the mind- bending celestial Svengali can have himself look important is what I'd call evil, in any case.

Exodus 14. 4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” It's been too long since you read your Bible. It's coming to something when a Doubledamned disbeliever has to instruct you in what your own Bible says.