Candle wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:03 pm
Compassionist wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:38 pm
I read the following:
Source:
https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?
God did.
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18
The Pharaoh did.
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following:
https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html
Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?
Pharaoh was not punished for hardening his heart. He was punished for mistreating the children of Israel and refusing to let them leave. All the hardening of his heart was merely a means to an end.
If, as you say, "All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights," from where do those rights come, and what is there to ensure that they are not violated?
It's not about Pharaoh being punished for having a hard heart. He was punished really for not letting the Israelites go. But it was God who in the later stages, who hardened Pharaoh's heart when he was going to release the Hebrews, just so that God could do a few more plagues, and he told Moses that he was going to do this, and never mind Pharoah's Free Will. So effectively he was punishing Pharaoh and all the Egyptians for what God himself had done. I don't see how that is moral.
The rights come from us. Where else can they come from? The Theory is that animals have feelings which are an evolved instinct for their own survival. This evolved into pack co-operation and family feelings, which in humans with a more complex brain and society, led to moral codes and eventually extending these codes of rights to other tribes and even animals. We can see this process in the evolution of the Bible from a violent and dictatorial Tribal god into a benevolent creator who loves everyone, so long as they Believe right, and today we regard the same rights as applying for everyone no matter their religion, and the Bible is struggling to get caught up with that.
You may reject or dismiss that. That doesn't matter. It is the answer that means that argument from Morality is no longer the unanswerable Proof that God exists. It is one more gap for God apologetic that has closed and a god (name your own (1) is no longer needed for an explanation.
While we're about it I might as well address this piece of Pauline arrant idiocy 'Can the pot dictate to the potter?' Yes. Absolutely.
In my married days, me and the missuz took pottery classes. And we learned about 'clay remembers' and what this means is that, if you make a vase wrong, you can't make it go right, as it is not in the nature of the pot you created than to be the shape you made. The clay dictates to the potter and nobody is to blame for it but the potter.
(1) yes, like a lot of these Gap for God arguments, it doesn't tell us which god made Life, the Universe and Everything, including morals. Kalam, disproving evolution, ascribing human reasoning to a creator still doesn't get you to the god of the Bible. That's why these apologetics are basically irrelevant and the Real debate is, and always has been the credibility of the Bible and, specifically, the resurrection. because Christianity stands or falls on whether that is true, and on really nothing else.b Kalam gets you to Islam as much as any other religion, until you validate a particular religion.
