The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

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The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #61

Post by William »

Compassionist wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:09 pm
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #54]
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.
Tardigrades https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.
Nonetheless, I am not the victim you appear to see me as, and want me to see myself as.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #62

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #58]

In theistic terms, The Heart is not only significant of the organ it is named for, but also - and especially in terms of Mysticism, The Heart refers to the motivating desires of the personality occupying the same body.

Thus, the "hardening of the heart" is about that aspect, re the storyline, as far as can be told.
The Jewish inflection re the storyline is concerned with the idea that supposes the God influences from a position outside of the personalities own perspective and this idea of separation is what brings about such concepts as a god-being interfering/interacting from an outside position, which in turn allows for the idea that the god isn't as good as the story-tellers try to make him out to be, due to how the believers attempt to reconcile the obvious contradictions with their love for such an idea of a Creator-GOD.
This is a type of Stockholm Syndrome as it can be regarded as a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation these ideas of GOD produce within the individual, to varying yet still related degrees.
I suspect the whole purpose of the Jewish [and following-on Abrahamic religions] ideas of GOD was to establish a human hieratical system which largely prevents believer and non-believer alike, from accessing possibly [more likely] truer ideas as to how such a GOD-beings' consciousness actually operates in relation to individual human consciousnesses...

It is wise to find a way in which to circumnavigate such obstacles, rather than settle for these being the criteria to which we all have no choice but to submit to.

Well...I think so anyway. :)

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #63

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:27 pm I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.
To me, it is clear that the intention of the plagues was to intimidate the pharaoh and make him capitulate. When it worked God, intervened to make the pharaoh change his mind thus causing God to unleash more devastation. Please quote the passages that clearly show that the pharaoh's mind changed as a result of a plague ending.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #64

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:19 pm
1213 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:27 pm I think that is a bad interpretation when Bible clearly shows that pharaohs mind changed every time the plague ended. If God influenced to pharaoh, it was by ending the plagues, not by some evil mind altering trick.
To me, it is clear that the intention of the plagues was to intimidate the pharaoh and make him capitulate. When it worked God, intervened to make the pharaoh change his mind thus causing God to unleash more devastation. Please quote the passages that clearly show that the pharaoh's mind changed as a result of a plague ending.
Gods and Kings - Burning bush scene


It is little wonder that the God of Moses was so easily portrayed as a somewhat narcissistic human child, as the story lends itself to that analogy.

God Talks To Moses scene

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #65

Post by Compassionist »

William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Compassionist wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:09 pm
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #54]
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.
Tardigrades https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.
Nonetheless, I am not the victim you appear to see me as, and want me to see myself as.
Yes, you are a victim. Even the fact that you are in denial about being a victim is inevitable. Did you choose to conceive yourself? Did you choose your genes? Can you do any of the tasks I asked you to do? No. You are a victim from conception to death. As are all living things. I define free will as a will that is free to do anything and is not determined by any variables. Such free will does not exist in biological organisms. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #66

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:20 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #56]

Yes - I was aware in watching the video that the Rabbi was as invested in his particular take on things as are the Christians he is critiquing.
Nevertheless, some of his points were truthful therein.

Both have hope in the coming of a Messiah - for differing and overlapping reasons.
The only relevant 'truth' re. the discussion that I can see is that the Jewish take on the Messiah undermines the Christian take on the messiah - it does not validate it.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #67

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Compassionist wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:09 pm
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #54]
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.
Tardigrades https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.
Nonetheless, I am not the victim you appear to see me as, and want me to see myself as.
I agree. It is what it is (because ecological conditions have squeezed out the evolutionary toothpaste - tube to the result that we have) and one can either whine and moan, or simply end it all or make the best of it. And the latter, compared to even a hundred years ago let alone a thousand isn't all bad.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #68

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Compassionist wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:41 am
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Compassionist wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:09 pm
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #54]
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.
Tardigrades https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.
Nonetheless, I am not the victim you appear to see me as, and want me to see myself as.
Yes, you are a victim. Even the fact that you are in denial about being a victim is inevitable. Did you choose to conceive yourself? Did you choose your genes? Can you do any of the tasks I asked you to do? No. You are a victim from conception to death. As are all living things. I define free will as a will that is free to do anything and is not determined by any variables. Such free will does not exist in biological organisms. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will.
I agree with that too :D .....in a way. Arguably, everything we are and everything we do is the result of a reason, not a random flip of a coin. And I reckon the impression we have of 'Free Will' is because we aren't aware of the reasons we decide to do this or that (1) and that is the Illusion of free will. But that'll do. It still gives us choice. Thus we are not prisoners of life. I din't ask to be born, but I'm very lucky that I was. Who would complain about a lotto win just because you didn't buy the ticket yourself? And what is the point of wingeing because we can't fly? Give thanks that you live in a time when we all can fly, with some scientific assistance.

It's half empty or half -full. Victims of circumstances or incredible lottery winners in Life. I could have been a peasant in 9th c China or a farmer in 11th c England. Instead I'm living in an age of prosperity, information and options, and anyone who wants to play the victim can do so, but I suggest that trying to make others see themselves as victims should just get a horse -laugh.

Besides which of course, even if the "We are so terribly hard done by" view of life had some mileage, what's it got to do with the topic? Or even the forum? How does it get God off the hook, argue for a god or make any case for theism?

(1) e.g instinct, including learned instinct. Who here has not changed their house or job and then found themselves without thinking, going to the old address or job? 'Habit' (learned instinct).

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #69

Post by Compassionist »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:28 am
Compassionist wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:41 am
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Compassionist wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:09 pm
William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:39 pm [Replying to Compassionist in post #54]
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.

I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.

Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.
Tardigrades https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.
Nonetheless, I am not the victim you appear to see me as, and want me to see myself as.
Yes, you are a victim. Even the fact that you are in denial about being a victim is inevitable. Did you choose to conceive yourself? Did you choose your genes? Can you do any of the tasks I asked you to do? No. You are a victim from conception to death. As are all living things. I define free will as a will that is free to do anything and is not determined by any variables. Such free will does not exist in biological organisms. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will.
I agree with that too :D .....in a way. Arguably, everything we are and everything we do is the result of a reason, not a random flip of a coin. And I reckon the impression we have of 'Free Will' is because we aren't aware of the reasons we decide to do this or that (1) and that is the Illusion of free will. But that'll do. It still gives us choice. Thus we are not prisoners of life. I din't ask to be born, but I'm very lucky that I was. Who would complain about a lotto win just because you didn't buy the ticket yourself? And what is the point of wingeing because we can't fly? Give thanks that you live in a time when we all can fly, with some scientific assistance.

It's half empty or half -full. Victims of circumstances or incredible lottery winners in Life. I could have been a peasant in 9th c China or a farmer in 11th c England. Instead I'm living in an age of prosperity, information and options, and anyone who wants to play the victim can do so, but I suggest that trying to make others see themselves as victims should just get a horse -laugh.

Besides which of course, even if the "We are so terribly hard done by" view of life had some mileage, what's it got to do with the topic? Or even the forum? How does it get God off the hook, argue for a god or make any case for theism?

(1) e.g instinct, including learned instinct. Who here has not changed their house or job and then found themselves without thinking, going to the old address or job? 'Habit' (learned instinct).
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I have never said that biological organisms don't make choices. I have said that our choices are determined by genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. They are not enjoying life. Did you know that 1 in 5 meerkats are murdered by other meerkats? Did you know the murdered meerkats are mostly the babies of non-alpha female meerkats? They are killed by alpha female meerkats. Selfish genes make selfish organisms. You can't blame organisms for their choices. Out of the 125 billion humans who have been born so far on Earth, 117.1 billion are already dead. The remaining 7.9 billion will also die. You can't prevent that.

There are billions of people who are currently alive who have never flown in a plane or even a balloon because they can't afford to. It's great that you are happy about being alive. I am not. I have never wanted to be alive. I think about suicide every few minutes. I hate all the suffering, injustice and deaths but I can't go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths. I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't. My lack of omnniscience and omnipotence makes me so sad. I want live without consuming any oxygen, water and food but I can't. I am a vegan but I want to me much more ethical then just being a vegan. I want to be a total non-consumer who consumes nothing and has zero ecological footprint. I feel terrible that my existence has made climate change worse. Every time I exhale, fart, burp, cough and sneeze I expel carbon dioxide which makes climate change worse. I am ashamed of my existence and the harm my existence has caused to other living things. I wish I was never conceived.

Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

We live in a reality full of suffering, injustice and deaths. If the Biblical God made this reality then he is guilty of failing to prevent all the suffering, injustice and deaths. It's possible that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil instead of being real and evil.

There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, injuries, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.
10. Make all living things forever happy.

Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die

I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power. I don't know if an all-knowing and all-powerful being exists or not.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #70

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Firstly, I am distressed to hear that you are in a delicate state of mind. I think you are missing out on a lot and I might suggest that you get some advice. A lot of depression can be helped by a pill or two.

Second, while evolution is not nice, we have been able to do better because we can adapt the environment to us rather than us having to adapt to the environment. I am well aware of the problems that we face, and the point is that technology can enable us to fly where evolution has said we can't. That many people are too poor to fly is not the point but I'll observe that people could fly in 2020 a lot more cheaply and easily than in 1920. It's not perfect but it is much much better, And working to make it better rather than whining because it's not perfect is the answer.

Which is all about politics, society and ethics, of course and nothing that I can tell to do with any possible god or religion. I totally reject any efforts to tell us that we should all be miserable, terrified and without hope just so we can all be herded into Church - not that I suppose that was your idea.

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