The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

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Compassionist
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The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

I read the following:

Source: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ... dened.html
Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6
Then I read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden ... heart.html

Also read: Isaiah 45:9 (NLT)
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. I disagree with the stance of the Got Questions Team about this. We are not clay pots. We are sentient beings. All sentient biological beings feel pain and that gives us rights. If God is causing us pain and death then God is culpable. Am I the only one or are there others who feel the same way?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #11

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am
1213 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:05 am I think it depends on how the hardening happens and what it means. In this case the heart was hardened when God ended the plague. To keep pharaohs heart soft, God would have to have keep the plagues going without an end. I think that would not have been good.
This makes absolutely no sense. Each time the pharaoh capitulated, God hardened his heart causing him to change his mind. The consequence was that the plagues needed to continue. Only after the death of all the first born, including animals mind you, God did not interfere when the pharaoh finally let the Hebrews go.

What gets me is that God could have simply killed ONE pharaoh right at the beginning instead or, at the least, caused him to capitulate. It didn't seem to trouble him that he ultimately killed a huge proportion of Egypt's population that was essentially innocent of any wrong doing just to win a battle of wits with an ordinary human. I suppose any God who has no trouble drowning almost everything on the planet has a very poor moral compass anyway.
Absolutely. While I think this is all concocted myth, IF one takes it as it reads, it's clear that God is managing and controlling the whole thing to have the plagues happen and just to show his power to convince the Israelites to worship Him, I suppose. It's rather nice, actually to have the apologists misrepresent (at least) the Bible to try to get God off the hook. We already know about the 'Ghost Bible' they carry in their heads, where it says what they prefer and that's what they quote rather than the one that says what it says.

And the excuse?
"Oh, you have to interpret it. They wrote differently back then". And one poster hit the nail on the head once - 'You have to be in Faith to understand it'. I am convinced and believe that Faith is at bottom a mental exploitation of persons' self conviction of rightness and self importance and self justification. And it is so with politics, alternative science and Fad partizanship. And how often we see them 'woven together' with Genesis literalism wedded to alien technology and Atlantis, or into a noxious mix of extreme politics and fanatic religion. With a few guns and bombs added.

But this Faith -based blinkered Interpretation leads to the peddling of indupitable Chattel slavery as 'indentured servitude'. Though they are merely recycling lies from apologetics websites. But I have Faith in humanity and often they don't come back. Maybe a deep dive into denial, or slinking away like Shelob to slowly heal the damage ;) but maybe they have started the slow process of realizing that they have been lied to by Christian apologetics.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #12

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to 1213 in post #7
And as the creator and giver of life, I think He would have right to do what ever He wants to His creations.
Then what can you hold against this creator god?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tezcatlipoca

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #13

Post by 1213 »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:44 pm [Replying to 1213 in post #7
And as the creator and giver of life, I think He would have right to do what ever He wants to His creations.
Then what can you hold against this creator god?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tezcatlipoca
I don't think he is the creator of life, but, if he would be, he would have the creators right.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

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Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am ...Each time the pharaoh capitulated, God hardened his heart causing him to change his mind....
You don't seem to understand the story. The reason why pharaohs heart hardened was that things were good again and pharaoh did'n have the pressure to do the right thing.
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am....of Egypt's population that was essentially innocent ...
How do you know they were innocent?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #15

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:48 am ... It was God who hardened his heart in order to keep this business of plagues going. ...
There is nothing in the Bible that supports your version of the story.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #16

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:12 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:48 am ... It was God who hardened his heart in order to keep this business of plagues going. ...
There is nothing in the Bible that supports your version of the story.
O Rly 8-) Exodus 9. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Up to then Pharaoh's heart was hardened, but isn't it let slip who was doing it him? Or even if Pharaoh had been changing his mind, God certainly did it here when Pharaoh had decided to do as Moses asked.

Tell me, do you not know what is in your own Bible or are you just hoping that I don't?

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #17

Post by Compassionist »

1213 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:05 am
Compassionist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:38 pm ...I am convinced that it is morally wrong of the Biblical God to harden the Pharaoh's heart and then punish him for it. ...
I think it depends on how the hardening happens and what it means. In this case the heart was hardened when God ended the plague. To keep pharaohs heart soft, God would have to have keep the plagues going without an end. I think that would not have been good.

Pharaoh was punished because he was evil, wanted to keep Jews as his slaves indefinitely. Only reason why was willing to let them go was to end the plagues. And every time the plagues ended, he returned to his wrong way. This is why I don't think God did anything wrong. And as the creator and giver of life, I think He would have right to do what ever He wants to His creations.
If the Bible is true, then the Biblical God is real and evil. If the Bible is false, then the Biblical God is imaginary and evil. With omniscience and omnipotence comes omniculpability. One can't be all-knowing and all-powerful without being guilty of everything that is wrong with all that exists. Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.
Last edited by Compassionist on Mon May 23, 2022 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #18

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:12 am
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am ...Each time the pharaoh capitulated, God hardened his heart causing him to change his mind....
You don't seem to understand the story. The reason why pharaohs heart hardened was that things were good again and pharaoh did'n have the pressure to do the right thing.
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am....of Egypt's population that was essentially innocent ...
How do you know they were innocent?
No, it is you that does not understand the story. Pharaoh capitulated and God made him change his mind.

Are you seriously suggesting that the population of Egypt, animals included, deserved to be devastated by the ten plagues and all those first born slaughtered by God?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #19

Post by Compassionist »

brunumb wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 6:58 pm
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:12 am
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am ...Each time the pharaoh capitulated, God hardened his heart causing him to change his mind....
You don't seem to understand the story. The reason why pharaohs heart hardened was that things were good again and pharaoh did'n have the pressure to do the right thing.
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am....of Egypt's population that was essentially innocent ...
How do you know they were innocent?
No, it is you that does not understand the story. Pharaoh capitulated and God made him change his mind.

Are you seriously suggesting that the population of Egypt, animals included, deserved to be devastated by the ten plagues and all those first born slaughtered by God?
I agree with you. Christians try to justify the Biblical God's many atrocities using special pleading. "If people do atrocities, they are evil but if God does atrocities, God is good. Whatever God does is good because it is God doing it." They use this terrible double standard when it comes to God's conduct. God is not exempt from ethical conduct. The greater the power, the greater the culpability. God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence make God omniculpable.

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Re: The Biblical God's conduct and culpability

Post #20

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:48 am
brunumb wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 6:58 pm
1213 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:12 am
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am ...Each time the pharaoh capitulated, God hardened his heart causing him to change his mind....
You don't seem to understand the story. The reason why pharaohs heart hardened was that things were good again and pharaoh did'n have the pressure to do the right thing.
brunumb wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 am....of Egypt's population that was essentially innocent ...
How do you know they were innocent?
No, it is you that does not understand the story. Pharaoh capitulated and God made him change his mind.

Are you seriously suggesting that the population of Egypt, animals included, deserved to be devastated by the ten plagues and all those first born slaughtered by God?
I agree with you. Christians try to justify the Biblical God's many atrocities using special pleading. "If people do atrocities, they are evil but if God does atrocities, God is good. Whatever God does is good because it is God doing it." They use this terrible double standard when it comes to God's conduct. God is not exempt from ethical conduct. The greater the power, the greater the culpability. God's alleged omniscience and omnipotence make God omniculpable.
Totally agree. As I've mentioned elsewhere, some have tried the apologetic that it's Good because God's plan is good in the end. It's the best possible get - out but did God really have to harden Pharaoh's heart when he's finally decided to release the Jews? Did the Midianites have to die? Was the Flood necessary when God repented of doing it afterwards? It isn't that we actually believe that God is evil, or incompetent or doesn't have it all worked out, but we do not believe these stories are true.

Others try to argue that everything that God does is good because His nature is Good. Or the related apologetic that God's morality works differently. :P We arer supposed to be made in God's image, or morality is written on our hearts. If it's God's nature, then our morality ought to be something like His. 'Do as I say, not as I do' is the final step before the bullet - biting: "God can do as he likes". But being a powerful dictator who can have you arrested and shot does not make him Good, only a powerful evil.

The real point about the problem of Evil' (of which God's nature and deeds one aspect) is that it will not convince the doubters; and that Believers can use it to excuse everything isn't the point. It is still one of the main reasons that people deconvert.

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